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Old 12-27-2015, 06:45 PM   #481
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Rey was awesome. She also messed up by setting those huge beast out so her hacking skills are not the best in the world.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:35 PM   #482
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If you think Chewy is not sticking around to avenge his best friends death than I don't know what to say
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:43 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
Falcon:
This whole section is conjecture or 'fan canon'. And that's fine. But my analysis requires no such speculation or reinterpretation of events. I am using the definition of Mary Sue to call a spade a spade.

Quote:
Selling Scrap:

She had to have a lot of skills to manage to scrap enough stuff from a dangerous downed Super Destroyer. Maybe she didn't know what her skills were from the Force but she had to have something guide her in that dangerous profession.
This is more speculation. I do not see what is so difficult about accepting that Rey was written way OP.

Quote:
We don't know the length of Kylo Ren's training in the force.
We know he received training to begin with.

Quote:
He was acting like a child in many scenes. He was shot in the chest, fought Finn with the lightsaber.
I acknowledged these potential disadvantages in my write-up and still conclude beating him so clean is a long shot.

Retroactive comparison: Literally everybody hated how Darth Maul was beaten. The backlash was so loud and sustained for years that he was resurrected in the EU and being that Clone Wars is the only surviving SW extended media before the big buyout - he survival is canon.

Nobody, absolutely nobody ever, speculated how much training Maul had to lose so stupidly. But here we are entertaining Kylo's shortcomings while dreaming up explanations for Rey's abilities.

Me thinks it would be easier to say she was an OP character.

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There is also the point that he was force weakened by his actions of killing Han Solo.
'Force weakened'? What is that, what are you saying here?

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The action which was the reverse of what Snoke said (Either Snoke lied to him or he was wrong.) He was not at his best to say the very least. He also didn't want to harm her so he was taking it easy on her. He said "you need training." He was acting like Vader to Luke before he sliced off the hand in Empire after giving up at the time to seduce Luke. He was way off his game and was trying to bring her into the Darkside.
Conjecture, conjecture, speculation, theories, etc.

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He lost the fight more than Rey won it.
This is hilariously absurd spin control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
She has a clearly way more rough upbringing than Luke as well, where she would have had to use the force without knowing it on a way more consistant basis. Compared to Rey, Luke was coddled, lapping it up on the farm with Owen and Beru.
And Anakin was a full blown slave. Still wasn't as OP as Rey in any movie.

Quote:
I dunno, I think they were trying to show that she is just mad fucking powerful and beyond anything that has been seen.
This is possible. But to speculate this is to accept that she is indeed a Mary Sue; we're just adding 'by design'. And I'm open to that, it's just the wacky attempts at rejecting premise one.

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And Kylo is not supposed to be a badass yet. He's no a disciplined powerhouse yet, and there's lots of holes in his game. He's kind of a spoiled rotten, whiney dickhead and I like that about him. He's not seasoned enough to be Darth Vader. He's just a child, it wouldn't make sense for him to be calculated.
I have already entertained these traits.

He should not lose clean to somebody who picked up a lightsaber that same day.

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I just thought it was super dope, anything you can argue as bad was over shadowed by the sheer fun of it.-
Whoa whoa, hold the presses.

Wasn't anybody talking about bad or good. This is why I prefaced all of that text with how much I like Rey, action girls in general, and don't even mind Mary Sue type characters. I am not slamming Rey or the movie.

Technically speaking, with the established 'rules' of the SW universe, with past and current characters to compare to, with the established definition of Mary Sue characters - I am saying objectively that Rey is a Mary Sue. Just like Neo. Just like Batman. Just like Alice from the RE movies. This is not 'bad'. It is what it is.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:44 PM   #484
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Originally Posted by wwe2222 View Post
If you think Chewy is not sticking around to avenge his best friends death than I don't know what to say
Don't even attempt to pull this. Argue what I write, please.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:47 PM   #485
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What I mean is that Snoke said killing Han would make him stronger in the force. It didn't.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:49 PM   #486
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use the force Luke, use the force. Not believe in yourself kid. Vader spends a good portion of his time force choking people. The force was a power, it's always been a power.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:49 PM   #487
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Not conjecture. Read the official novelization. Nothing would be written in it if it didn't pass director.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:49 PM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
What I mean is that Snoke said killing Han would make him stronger in the force. It didn't.
Doesn't Ren comment he doesn't feel as he thought? I don't quite recall.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:51 PM   #489
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He might have. I've only seen it once though.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:52 PM   #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
What I mean is that Snoke said killing Han would make him stronger in the force. It didn't.
We don't know that. We don't know if it was metaphorical or literal. We don't know that killing Han would upgrade him with Force Lightning or whatever. We don't know any of that. We don't know what stronger means in this case.

We do know he was partially trained by Luke and then presumably by Snoke. We know Rey never touched a lightsaber in her life and used Force abilities only that very day. We know Kylo can stop a fucking laser in mid air.

Unless there's very juicy exposition in Eps 8, Rey's story arc at face value makes no kind of sense without simply saying she's a Mary Sue. Any other explanation is pure speculation or suspension of Star Wars own internal logics. All I'm sayin.
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:53 PM   #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
What I mean is that Snoke said killing Han would make him stronger in the force. It didn't.
Were you expecting him to get a little +1xp show up above his head and for him to level up?
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Old 12-27-2015, 07:53 PM   #492
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Not conjecture. Read the official novelization. Nothing would be written in it if it didn't pass director.
Which part are you referring to?
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:02 PM   #493
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Both Ren's feeling weaker because of killing Han and also Snoke telling him killing Han would make him stronger. We don't know fully know was stronger means but it wouldn't look like that.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:06 PM   #494
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We're probably going to get a lengthy exposition when Luke tells Rey where she came from. Wasn't one of the promos for the movies Luke telling somebody about his family's ability in the force?
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:10 PM   #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
Both Ren's feeling weaker because of killing Han and also Snoke telling him killing Han would make him stronger. We don't know fully know was stronger means but it wouldn't look like that.
Sure.

But let me humor you on that front: It still doesn't account for the other 90% of the movie where a scavenger girl from Jakku possesses every skill imaginable to save herself and/or others.

Name a scene in the movie where she was overtly fallible/defeated/humbled and required the assistance of anyone else. Go.

And the 'Force sleep' totally does not invalidate the general observations. In fact her capture was the First Order's undoing.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:10 PM   #496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalyx triaD View Post
This whole section is conjecture or 'fan canon'. And that's fine. But my analysis requires no such speculation or reinterpretation of events. I am using the definition of Mary Sue to call a spade a spade.



This is more speculation. I do not see what is so difficult about accepting that Rey was written way OP.



We know he received training to begin with.



I acknowledged these potential disadvantages in my write-up and still conclude beating him so clean is a long shot.

Retroactive comparison: Literally everybody hated how Darth Maul was beaten. The backlash was so loud and sustained for years that he was resurrected in the EU and being that Clone Wars is the only surviving SW extended media before the big buyout - he survival is canon.

Nobody, absolutely nobody ever, speculated how much training Maul had to lose so stupidly. But here we are entertaining Kylo's shortcomings while dreaming up explanations for Rey's abilities.

Me thinks it would be easier to say she was an OP character.



'Force weakened'? What is that, what are you saying here?



Conjecture, conjecture, speculation, theories, etc.



This is hilariously absurd spin control.



And Anakin was a full blown slave. Still wasn't as OP as Rey in any movie.



This is possible. But to speculate this is to accept that she is indeed a Mary Sue; we're just adding 'by design'. And I'm open to that, it's just the wacky attempts at rejecting premise one.



I have already entertained these traits.

He should not lose clean to somebody who picked up a lightsaber that same day.



Whoa whoa, hold the presses.

Wasn't anybody talking about bad or good. This is why I prefaced all of that text with how much I like Rey, action girls in general, and don't even mind Mary Sue type characters. I am not slamming Rey or the movie.

Technically speaking, with the established 'rules' of the SW universe, with past and current characters to compare to, with the established definition of Mary Sue characters - I am saying objectively that Rey is a Mary Sue. Just like Neo. Just like Batman. Just like Alice from the RE movies. This is not 'bad'. It is what it is.
Yeah I was just making general statements about some stuff I've seen in this thread, I don't really care about what you think about Star Wars.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:13 PM   #497
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We're probably going to get a lengthy exposition when Luke tells Rey where she came from. Wasn't one of the promos for the movies Luke telling somebody about his family's ability in the force?
That was classic Abrams misdirection. It left us to speculate on any of the three new heroes. Lots of promotional material showed Finn with a lightsaber. The swerve was clearly in Rey's favor.

No way in hell would that line be a tease for the next movie. No way.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:14 PM   #498
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Quote:
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Yeah I was just making general statements about some stuff I've seen in this thread, I don't really care about what you think about Star Wars.
Here we go with the 'Hey guys I'm here to say I don't really care, I care only enough to say so'. You're above this yadda yadda whatever.

My feelings on this is no better than anyone elses. I never asserted so. My only opinions were stated early on. On the idea of Mary Sue, I am not giving opinions.

I value everybody's contributions just so we're clear.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:17 PM   #499
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It could be both. We'll see.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:19 PM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
Yeah I was just making general statements about some stuff I've seen in this thread, I don't really care about what you think about Star Wars.
I was responding to Triad not you. So, why would I care?
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:21 PM   #501
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I am actually a life long star wars fan I'm just not going to get into a silly debate about weird nitpicky things.

I choose to bask in its glory and marvel at what I just saw, and not get into a argument about a bunch of nonsense.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:21 PM   #502
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What is OP? On point? We don't see enough of Anakin as a kid to judge how "forcey" he was as a kid.
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Old 12-27-2015, 08:31 PM   #503
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You bunch of nerds.
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:02 PM   #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
What is OP? On point? We don't see enough of Anakin as a kid to judge how "forcey" he was as a kid.
Borrowing a fighting game term. OP = Over-Powered. Just a shorthand for my main point.
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:04 PM   #505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
What is OP? On point? We don't see enough of Anakin as a kid to judge how "forcey" he was as a kid.
OP = Overpowered

I've also seen it used to say "original poster" when replying to threads/comments on occasion.
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:16 PM   #506
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I will agree she is OP but will wait to see if she is OP for a reason. Like Anakin was. Han talked about balance in the force in his "It's all real" speech. Being able to ride a podracer at 10 when even adult humans couldn't would be considered Overpowered. Being able to build the greatest service droid in the galaxy with 4 million languages is also an overpowered ability.

Operas are often obvious about the story. So, even though it is obvious I feel like she'll be Luke's daughter.
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:26 PM   #507
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Quote:
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I was responding to Triad not you. So, why would I care?
So was I
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:32 PM   #508
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon View Post
I will agree she is OP-
A round for all the men at the table, we are officially done here. Let's drink.

This was the single point I was getting across this whole time. For all we know she's in fact the one who brings balance to the Force. Who knows. I have no problem speculating with you on this. I just found arguments against her obvious infallibility disingenuous. I did not mean to be dismissive or anything, I was only ever arguing the technical narrative of her character, not what that means in the fiction.
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:38 PM   #509
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Old 12-27-2015, 09:47 PM   #510
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While yes she is overpowered, i don't really see the criticisms not this. Characters like Batman and Superman are too, yet are still popular among fans and critics. Either the character works for you or doesn't.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:09 PM   #511
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I 100% agree Kylo should have destroyed both Finn and Rey with the lightsaber. I thought Finn lasted as long as he did was laughable. It seemed Kylo was at least going easy on Rey but Finn should have been crushed in a minute.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:13 PM   #512
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I don't think Ren is as advanced as you guys think.

Luke lasts pretty long against Vader in their first fight and eBay saber training does he really have compared to Vader. Vader resorts to cheating and hurling everything but the kitchen sink at him.

Now Vader could've been taking it easy as not to kill Luke but Luke gets some solid shots at him.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:13 PM   #513
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I will say either Finn or Ren should have lost an arm or a leg.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:21 PM   #514
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Finn is pretty badly hurt. How many characters do we need to see lose a hand?
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:27 PM   #515
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Honestly I think Fin being able to last so long against Kylo was meant to show how attached he was to Rey. Like he had an adrenaline thing going on and was literally fighting for the lives of his best friend and himself, and he still got f'ed up pretty badly afterward. Also Kylo was clearly not meant to be taken seriously as a threat. I think it was stupid of them to make him so whiny and turn him into such a little bitch, but he definitely was meant to be that way so it makes sense that he got his ass handed to him.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:47 PM   #516
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I think his petulance was a necessary evil. He reminded me of Joaquin Phoenix's performance in Gladiator. Dangerous not because he's formidable at this point, but unpredictable, immature and dastardly.
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Old 12-27-2015, 10:56 PM   #517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorgeous Dale Newstead View Post
I think his petulance was a necessary evil. He reminded me of Joaquin Phoenix's performance in Gladiator. Dangerous not because he's formidable at this point, but unpredictable, immature and dastardly.
Yes, exactly. He also feels entitled. We will continue to see his training and his powers evolve.
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:03 PM   #518
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And Rey is clearly just far more badass and better at the force than he is. And it's great because it will make him fucking crazy and he will write about it in his journal, while combing his lustrous locks of hair.
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:07 PM   #519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruien View Post
I 100% agree Kylo should have destroyed both Finn and Rey with the lightsaber. I thought Finn lasted as long as he did was laughable. It seemed Kylo was at least going easy on Rey but Finn should have been crushed in a minute.
These stormtroopers seem to have some form of melee training, plus Kylo was injured, plus he was mocking Finn and playing with him, and then he eventually did fuck him up. Seems fine to me.
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Old 12-27-2015, 11:09 PM   #520
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