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Old 08-07-2020, 07:33 PM   #56681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Yes to a certain degree and mainly in terms of it being a useful way of tracking how wrestling is both doing and heading for the short and long term.

Like almost all of WWE's current woes with ratings can be traced back to their utter failure to turn Cena's young fans into their future new core for TV. The lack of a real "Next Gen" era also didn't help. NXT failing to be that "Next Gen" isn't helping either.

In regards to AEW, I find this stuff a lot more interesting since not only do you get to witness a new wrestling company its early beginnings, the ratings and viewership will help reveal if a next wrestling boom is even possible. The last one only really happened because wrestling managed to get very popular with younger people and an outside company was strong enough to seriously challenge and force WWE to actually change for the better.

I don't really blame Meltzer for the craziness that has become ratings talk online since it just ended up being a microcosm of how social media and the internet has gotten worse or toxic over time for quality discussion. He mentioned before that the only reason he stopped doing detailed ratings stuff after the Attitude Era ended was due to him getting bored over the lack of a notable wrestling war and AEW vs. NXT reigniting that passion he once had for it. He does go a bit overboard with it at times, especially whenever he starts overanalyzing things instead of keeping it simple. All that does is give more ammo for added ridicule and scorn by people who already hate him for various reasons.
I stopped reading when I got to the the part where you use the ratings to make a blanket statement in regards to the narrative you want to push. Raw is a three-hour show now. But no, it’s got to be that Cena fans weren’t lifers? How simplistic is that?

Ratings still matter insofar as they are made to matter. If the USA Network heads care about them — they matter. But as a measuring tool they’re so archaic. Nielsen themselves states there is a 10% margin of error, since this is all guess work and estimates. And what if a kid watches Raw at his grandparents’ house because they’re the only old fucks with cable they know? They get counted as those “undesirables” that Tony Khan shits on.

What matters is how important you are to a network’s bottom-line. Meltzer has pumped significance into the ratings by presenting them as power levels to a nerdy and obsessive audience. He always has a story of the week then. Raw is falling, SmackDown disappointing, AEW soaring. It’s like if I put out an an environmental newsletter and supplemented my stories with a section about how many birds I saw on my walk re: the health of bird populations.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:20 PM   #56682
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RAW going three hours just compounded that issue with WWE's failure to build a new younger core TV base.

They were already feeling some of the negative effects well before that but the 3 hour era sped the entire process up.
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Old 08-07-2020, 08:53 PM   #56683
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That’s a whole bunch of nothing. Yeah, three hours has affected them. That’s the point. So has Cena leaving, the Attitude era dying, Triple H being on TV, the Chris Benoit incident, cable cutting, streaming services, the UFC, Vince McMahon’s vision (or lack thereof), a butterfly flapping its wings off the coast of Japan, and about one hundred other things.
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Old 08-07-2020, 09:21 PM   #56684
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Cena's young fans literally were WWE's most recent chance at building for a future in terms of TV.

Cena was one of the best ever in WWE history when it came to live events and merch sales numbers but also one of the weakest ever top stars in terms of his core fanbase not becoming a new foundation for WWE's future. WWE's shitty booking habits they developed during his era did a ton of damage towards that. Everything post start of PG Era just added to that problem instead of being a separate main cause.

Wrestlenomics' Brandon Thurston did a report on this a couple years ago and discovered the main issue was a big gap had developed within Cena's young TV viewer fanbase. Cena had a very strong pool of young TV viewers but then start leaving en mass after just a couple of years and were not returning in sizable numbers down the line, meaning they very likely stopped being wrestling fans all together.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:11 PM   #56685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Like almost all of WWE's current woes with ratings can be traced back to their utter failure to turn Cena's young fans into their future new core for TV.
100%

The younger fans they get these days seem to be people who start watching because an older relative, like a parent, does and that number is shrinking.

Neither NXT or AEW really tries to get new fans either, both cater to hardcore fans.

Despite all the big $$$ deals it's one of those situations that will become a bigger problem sooner rather than later if not corrected. I am wondering if WWE's new head honcho will have any ideas on developing a future base rather than trying not to lose more of the existing one, which seems to be the current situation.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:18 PM   #56686
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WWE had two big opportunities to get fans back they'd lost and they blew both chances. RAW 25 was entirely focused on really terrible "comedy" segments starring old wrestlers and gave people little reason to tune in to see today's wrestlers. I remember this was at the height of Braun's popularity as a monster face too and he barely appeared or did much on the show.

The other big chance was the debut of SD on FOX. They front-loaded it with stars of the past and people from RAW who wouldn't be on the show next week and gave viewers little reason to keep coming back. The best solution would have been to front-load with names people knew and also have a clean slate of all storylines and all titles so anyone could jump in. Instead it was the usual you must also watch RAW and order the WWE Network to follow along. The smartest thing possible would have been to make SD as inclusive viewing as possible, with all storylines contained to those 2 hours on FOX each week.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:27 PM   #56687
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slik View Post
100%

The younger fans they get these days seem to be people who start watching because an older relative, like a parent, does and that number is shrinking.

Neither NXT or AEW really tries to get new fans either, both cater to hardcore fans.

Despite all the big $$$ deals it's one of those situations that will become a bigger problem sooner rather than later if not corrected. I am wondering if WWE's new head honcho will have any ideas on developing a future base rather than trying not to lose more of the existing one, which seems to be the current situation.
At least in regards to AEW, they seem to slowly be growing and drawing in younger fans better than before but still too early to make any definitive claims.

Them recently picking up key demo wins over RAW and the slow shift towards Wednesday's as the potential new big night for wrestling could be the start of something major if the trend continues.

NXT might be a lost cause since they just keep getting older instead of younger despite being the type of show that should appeal more to younger wrestling fans compared to RAW and SD.
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Old 08-07-2020, 10:43 PM   #56688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Cena's young fans literally were WWE's most recent chance at building for a future in terms of TV.

Cena was one of the best ever in WWE history when it came to live events and merch sales numbers but also one of the weakest ever top stars in terms of his core fanbase not becoming a new foundation for WWE's future. WWE's shitty booking habits they developed during his era did a ton of damage towards that. Everything post start of PG Era just added to that problem instead of being a separate main cause.

Wrestlenomics' Brandon Thurston did a report on this a couple years ago and discovered the main issue was a big gap had developed within Cena's young TV viewer fanbase. Cena had a very strong pool of young TV viewers but then start leaving en mass after just a couple of years and were not returning in sizable numbers down the line, meaning they very likely stopped being wrestling fans all together.
Jesus Christ, you do not fucking listen. You just go back to the same robotic points, regardless of whether or not they are reasonable. There is mixed truth in this, which all comes together as a false assessment with conviction behind it.

That is not the correct use of the word "literally." The WWE has a chance to make new fans every week. Cena hasn't been a full-time guy since 2015.

The rest of your post is just irrelevant gibberish and internet talking points and is just going to make me repeat that there are a myriad of factors that have affected the WWE -- which, by the way, is super fucking profitable right now. That's the future Vince McMahon was building to, and it was a success, love or hate the guy.

But you can't stay on topic and just have to keep hitting the same bullshit like it's a fact. There's a big difference between saying that Cena's kids left (no shit) and that Cena's kids leaving has been an "utter failure" to create a core audience. The fuck?

A big part of the move to PG and Cena in general was to make the WWE a big friendly Muppet of a promotion to encourage advertisers and sponsors -- which worked extremely well. Vince McMahon sees your "utter failure" and wipes his big, cummy profit dick all over it.
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:09 PM   #56689
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Why are you so dense when it comes to discussing anything related to viewership.

And what part of WWE spending years courting a younger fan base with Cena ended up them failing to convert them into a new tv core base for the future do you not understand. They were leaving en masse while Cena was still there, not just after, because WWE was doing a terrible job keeping them invested for the long term.

Besides trying to shove Reigns into a Cena mold instead of letting him develop into his own thing, that lack of a bridge created by the Cena era contributed just as much to Reigns' struggles in becoming the next mega star for WWE.

WWE being massively profitable these days has a lot more to do with the changes in the TV industry and WWE marketing themselves as a sport than anything they've actually done. WCW had a similar mentality of ignoring all their real problems because they were making record profits only to crash hard when that bubble burst.
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Old 08-08-2020, 03:47 AM   #56690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Why are you so dense when it comes to discussing anything related to viewership.

And what part of WWE spending years courting a younger fan base with Cena ended up them failing to convert them into a new tv core base for the future do you not understand. They were leaving en masse while Cena was still there, not just after, because WWE was doing a terrible job keeping them invested for the long term.

Besides trying to shove Reigns into a Cena mold instead of letting him develop into his own thing, that lack of a bridge created by the Cena era contributed just as much to Reigns' struggles in becoming the next mega star for WWE.

WWE being massively profitable these days has a lot more to do with the changes in the TV industry and WWE marketing themselves as a sport than anything they've actually done. WCW had a similar mentality of ignoring all their real problems because they were making record profits only to crash hard when that bubble burst.
I’m not the one who parrots Dave Meltzer on these things. I wouldn’t worry about my density. You do realize that the ratings aren’t literal measurements, right?

Was the plan to convert the kids into a long-term fan-base or was it to profit off them short-term and secure big meaty TV rights and family friendly sponsorship deals from him? Because I’d like to see some evidence that it was definitively one and not the other. Ooh, but that ruins the narrative, doesn’t it?

It’d be great if the kids stuck around. No one would argue against that. But to suggest that it was the linchpin of the WWE’s business model is fucking insane, especially when the ratings were falling under Cena anyway. If the idea was to get kids, then actually getting kids might have been a good idea. But the WWE’s business plan wasn’t what you say it is, nor what Meltzer said it was, because Meltzer is selling a story to people like you.

This is hard to except, because Vince McMahon is a cunt and it makes some people feel very stupid, but the man is a genius at readying his product for the marketplace. Some of his business dealings are shady as fuck, but there’s a reason the WWE is mega-profitable right now, and absolutely none of it has to do with WWE “failing” to hook the Cena kids (who were always going to grow up).

Roman Reigns is irrelevant to the conversation, haha. You are just spiralling out into internet talking points like you always do when you get called out and need to scramble to find a borrowed point.

People cannot separate their view of the WWE’s content from their success as a business. They’re uninspired by Brock Lesnar title reign #7 so they make up a story about how the sky is falling and Vince is an idiot because he didn’t push Zack Ryder and let him go to TNA.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:34 AM   #56691
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I have never seen photos of the Rock's business partner/ex-wife Dani Garcia before.
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Old 08-08-2020, 06:41 AM   #56692
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I think that’s a more recent transformation for her.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:44 AM   #56693
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Old 08-08-2020, 09:47 AM   #56694
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That is inaccurate.

TV shows still get deals based on their ratings and still get canceled due to a lack of ratings. RAW dropping 700k viewers from the start of 2020, with no sign of that changing soon, is an interesting story.

NXT and AEW retaining and growing viewership is as well. We're seeing a shrinking of the hard-core base and I'm fascinated to see how low it could go and where it will end up at.
lol the numbers are fucking putrid and further highlight how niche wrestling is, and how irrelevant WWE is. Nothing but negatives.
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:39 AM   #56695
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I have never seen photos of the Rock's business partner/ex-wife Dani Garcia before.
Easy to see why she's an Ex i suppose.
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:55 AM   #56696
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The smartest thing possible would have been to make SD as inclusive viewing as possible, with all storylines contained to those 2 hours on FOX each week.
Kinda related to this: If you have two separate brands, they should be as far apart as possible (in kayfabe, anyway).

That they women's tag team champions can float across brands and that Sasha Banks can carry the RAW Women's championship to SD ruins this for me.
Last edited by screech; 08-08-2020 at 11:55 AM. Reason: I don't know which brand Sasha "belongs to" but she appears everywhere so my point stands.
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Old 08-08-2020, 02:10 PM   #56697
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You just have to take a look at how bad the product is to know that this was no-ones plan. It’s an old guy who has lost his way producing baffling, confusing and, worse still, mindnumbingly boring content.

It’s retained a niche because wrestling always will and WWE is the “Hoover” of wrestling.
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Old 08-08-2020, 02:27 PM   #56698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
Kinda related to this: If you have two separate brands, they should be as far apart as possible (in kayfabe, anyway).

That they women's tag team champions can float across brands and that Sasha Banks can carry the RAW Women's championship to SD ruins this for me.
Yeah, I was skimming over SD results and thought about this more:

Why is there a 'RAW/SD/NXT' battle royal to find a challenger for Bayley...

Why does Asuka have to beat Bayley to face Sasha...if she beats Bayley shouldn't she be the SD champ or facing Bayley...
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Old 08-08-2020, 03:59 PM   #56699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RastafarianMon View Post
poster emperor smeat made some valid arguments. in response you said a lot of things but it didn't go anywhere. i soon realized that you were just talking negatively about wrestling fandom and journalists like every other post of yours.


you're like that guy at the party who constantly interrupts conversations and never stops talking. in his mind he thinks he's the shit but in reality everyone is waiting for him to leave so they can get back to enjoying the party and each other's company.
Don't interrupt me. You're not the shit. Please leave.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:00 PM   #56700
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Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
Cena's young fans literally were WWE's most recent chance at building for a future in terms of TV.
Quote in bold for emphasis.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:28 PM   #56701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RastafarianMon View Post
translation: please don’t interrupt me while i suck the joy out of this party and make everyone regret they came here.
Oh please regret coming here. Please, please, please regret coming here.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:21 PM   #56702
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Originally Posted by RastafarianMon View Post
i don’t regret standing up to you at all. some posters are glad I did so.


Maybe you are the shit?!?
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:35 PM   #56703
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I'm not sure if he'll ever be cleared to take bumps again, but Nattie posted a video of Tyson Kidd working out in a ring. Warmed my heart. I always liked TK, but I REALLY warmed up to him when he started putting his personality together in NXT. Was easily one of my favorite acts in all of wrestling.

If he could ever make a comeback, I'd be so fucking down.
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Old 08-08-2020, 07:21 PM   #56704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slik View Post
Yeah, I was skimming over SD results and thought about this more:

Why is there a 'RAW/SD/NXT' battle royal to find a challenger for Bayley...

Why does Asuka have to beat Bayley to face Sasha...if she beats Bayley shouldn't she be the SD champ or facing Bayley...
WWE's booking of their main roster women's division has been a mostly a mess, especially their SD Women's division, ever since both Becky and Charlotte stepped aside for different reasons.

Steph claimed the reason for the Battle Royal is due to all the enemies Bayley has been making on all 3 brands but if that's the case then like only 3 people on NXT have any real issue with her. Two of those 3 would have a better claim if the tag belts were on the line instead.

Wouldn't even need a Battle Royal to find Bayley's next challenger had they not bungled Naomi's push and build to be her next challenger. Right now, nobody on SD looks worthy besides Nikki but she just finished up her feud with Bayley.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:34 PM   #56705
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
WWE's booking of their main roster women's division has been a mostly a mess, especially their SD Women's division, ever since both Becky and Charlotte stepped aside for different reasons.

Steph claimed the reason for the Battle Royal is due to all the enemies Bayley has been making on all 3 brands but if that's the case then like only 3 people on NXT have any real issue with her. Two of those 3 would have a better claim if the tag belts were on the line instead.

Wouldn't even need a Battle Royal to find Bayley's next challenger had they not bungled Naomi's push and build to be her next challenger. Right now, nobody on SD looks worthy besides Nikki but she just finished up her feud with Bayley.
Your explanation is a mess. So there are 3 people on a show Bayley isn’t even on that have a problem with her? That sounds like a lot, considering she isn’t even rostered onto that show.

It’s fucking fine. It’s hollow and uninteresting. But a “mess?” Holy shit. Chill the fuck out. If having a heel champ you need to sashay a new challenger in for is a “mess,” I can’t imagine how you would describe AEW’s women’s division.

Oh wait, it’s probably “brilliant” because Dave Meltzer says it is.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:37 PM   #56706
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Sorry to “bully you.” I know you don’t deal well with any sort of criticism. I’m genuinely not trying to be mean. But come on, man. Think for yourself.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:40 PM   #56707
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Bill Dundee almost tricked Bobby Eaton into jacking off his dog. Fucking incredible.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:55 PM   #56708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
Your explanation is a mess. So there are 3 people on a show Bayley isn’t even on that have a problem with her? That sounds like a lot, considering she isn’t even rostered onto that show.

It’s fucking fine. It’s hollow and uninteresting. But a “mess?” Holy shit. Chill the fuck out. If having a heel champ you need to sashay a new challenger in for is a “mess,” I can’t imagine how you would describe AEW’s women’s division.

Oh wait, it’s probably “brilliant” because Dave Meltzer says it is.
What's with you thinking everything I talk about wrestling comes from or is influenced by Meltzer.

That problem with Bayley is what Steph stated on SD last night as the reason for making the upcoming Battle Royal a three-brand match instead of just focusing on SD.

WWE's main roster women's division being a mess comes from actually watching these shows the past few months and seeing WWE wasting a golden opportunity to properly build up others lower on the ladder and improve the quality of their RAW and SD divisions.

AEW Women's division is just as poorly booked because of a mix of injuries and them not getting enough quality tv time to develop into a strong division after all these months.
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Old 08-08-2020, 09:36 PM   #56709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor Smeat View Post
What's with you thinking everything I talk about wrestling comes from or is influenced by Meltzer.

That problem with Bayley is what Steph stated on SD last night as the reason for making the upcoming Battle Royal a three-brand match instead of just focusing on SD.

WWE's main roster women's division being a mess comes from actually watching these shows the past few months and seeing WWE wasting a golden opportunity to properly build up others lower on the ladder and improve the quality of their RAW and SD divisions.

AEW Women's division is just as poorly booked because of a mix of injuries and them not getting enough quality tv time to develop into a strong division after all these months.
Because you assume his default internet position, which is not only unoriginal, but it's actually unfounded. I don't have to watch to know that the stories on SmackDown have been Mandy Rose and Sonya Deville as well as Alexa Bliss & Nikki Cross vs. Sasha Banks & Bayley. It's a two hour show. Those are functional, if boring and shitty, stories right there. It's not a "mess." It's actually quite tidy. The messiest thing has been changing Lacey Evans' gimmick back and forth. But that's whatever, because she's the shits.

I don't know what you expect a Women's Division on a WWE show to be? How many women characters should they focus on? 16? 32? They need a new challenger now so they're setting up a new challenger. It's in the laziest way possible, but it makes "sense" strictly speaking. Bayley has been fucking around everywhere so Stephanie, who seems to have an issue with these ladies, is going to announce open season on her. How is that messy? You have a few women who matter on SmackDown, and it looks like they might be losing Sasha, so they're going to get a new one in. Big whoop.

To complain that there aren't a billion women doing round robin matches each week is pretty markish. And what would you scrap in favor of these Iron Woman matches to create an unlimited batch of women stars?
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Old 08-08-2020, 10:37 PM   #56710
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I don't give a shit what his default position is or even his views on women's wrestling which have not been that good either considering some of the recent stuff he's said.

If I'm going to discuss stuff about wrestling from watching it, its going to be based on what I've seen and not because you think all I do is just parrot him.

All I've wanted or expect for WWE's women's wrestling is something more enjoyable and entertaining than what they have been doing in general since post-Mania. NXT gives me that satisfaction for the most part but main roster leaves a ton to desire.

If you find what they are doing is entertaining then good for you. Same for anyone else as well since at least that means they are enjoying WWE and wrestling during these tough times.
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Old 08-08-2020, 10:58 PM   #56711
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"It's fucking fine" but it's also hollow and uninteresting?

If it's not interesting, it's not really fine either. It's at the very least convoluted because WWE can't stick to the simple concept of keeping the brands separate.
Last edited by screech; 08-08-2020 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Dumb shit like this is why I have Noid on ignore.
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:03 PM   #56712
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I've only watched Dynamite for AEW lately, so I'm not sure what's up on Dark or this tag tourney. But the women haven't really been featured much lately, have they?

(Though I guess injuries and a pandemic will force some changes everywhere.)
Last edited by screech; 08-08-2020 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Or maybe I'm forgetting stuff, who knows?
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:20 PM   #56713
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Just the usual segment and/or match for them which has been the case more often than not in recent times.

Injuries to some key players and the pandemic messing things and blocking out their foreign-based talent has done a number to the division's direction but even so, AEW's booking of their women's division and what they have at hand hasn't been that good.

The first night of their women's tag tournament has done a pretty good number on Youtube but no reason at all why they didn't bother just having it be on Dynamite since that would be something very meaningful for the division on tv.

If I had to compare, AEW Women's division is like NXT's tag division early into its post-seasonal era. Both were the biggest weak points of their shows and in NXT's case, took a long while for it to improve and only after they started putting some real long term effort into it.
Last edited by Emperor Smeat; 08-08-2020 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:34 AM   #56714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RastafarianMon View Post
this is condescension at its finest. it is clear that emperor smeat watches a lot of wrestling and his opinion is far more nuanced and valuable. so what if it coincides with the popular opinion? doesn't make it any less true.

he also contributes a great deal to this board whereas all you bring to the table is negativity and detestable toxic energy.


Smeat does not have a nuanced opinion. And his way of interpreting news is just not true. It's easy to dismiss with reason. It's great he takes the time to collate the sheets and post them. I've thanked him for that. But the commentary he shares (not even sure if his own) just doesn't make sense a lot of the time these days.
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Old 08-09-2020, 07:54 AM   #56715
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Again, not saying that to knock the guy. He's allowed to have whatever opinion he wants, but I'm going to clear up disinformation if I see it.
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:22 AM   #56716
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For anyone who doesn't feel like reading essays: It seems that Noid, who admits to not watching WWE, is trying to lecture Smeat, who watches every week, on how the product is shitty. But also it's not shitty because it's fucking fine.

Also something something Dave Meltzer, I don't know.
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:25 AM   #56717
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Is that giant ninja still around on RAW? I can't remember if he made the Hulu cut last week. That guy is awesome.
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Old 08-09-2020, 03:19 PM   #56718
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Giant Ninja was Shane's bodyguard for about 10 seconds on RAW this week.
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Old 08-09-2020, 03:52 PM   #56719
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That's good he was there
Last edited by screech; 08-09-2020 at 04:05 PM. Reason: I remember this now. Nice.
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Old 08-09-2020, 04:40 PM   #56720
Mr. Nerfect
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by screech View Post
For anyone who doesn't feel like reading essays: It seems that Noid, who admits to not watching WWE, is trying to lecture Smeat, who watches every week, on how the product is shitty. But also it's not shitty because it's fucking fine.

Also something something Dave Meltzer, I don't know.
AEW drove me to watch more highlights, just to do a compare and contrast. Watching every week doesn’t mean you know more. The content is largely shitty in execution, but some of the ideas aren’t shit in conception. There are also realities about their business model that internet smarks have trouble gripping or deliberately ignore.

How the AEW/NXT “war” has been presented has been a big tipping point for me. So much misreading and projecting contrary to reason. Which, by the way, no one argues with me on. BigCrippyZ calls me a cocksucker and Smeat cries when I point out something he has shared is just obviously and blatantly wrong. But no one actually gets in and discusses the points, because they know I’m right.

People just like the hardcore fan narrative of the WWE is evil, dying and bad. There are truths in there without saying things like the SmackDowm Women’s Division is a mess. It’s being built around Bayley right now. That is its entire purpose. Whatever Smeat is going on about — a failure to create other contenders or whatever — is honestly fucking markish. It’s a one-woman vehicle right now, with Mandy Rose and Sonya’s stupid drama being the other emphasis. Am I wrong about that?
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