"100,001" Replies (Wrestling Forum)

[Simple Fan]

I agree. We were on this subject earlier but if they took Smackdown and made it a different promotion like NXT. I know it cliché but they could rebrand Smadown as WCW and have it be the middle ground between WWE and NXT. Wouldn't have to take titles from Raw unless they wanted to use the US title as the top title in the promotion. Reinstate the WVW tag titles and maybe the cruiserweight title.

[Emperor Smeat]

[Damian Rey]

If they are gonna split the roster, they need to present each brand as equally important. Creative teams with each having their own head of such would only help create brand identity.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by loopydate Except the last time they split the brands, having two "diluted" rosters allowed guys like John Cena to prove themselves as headliners to begin with. If he was on the same show as Triple H when he came up in 2002-03, Cena would never have had the same opportunity.

Actually Cena is a great example of why the brand extension was a joke and a failure. Once it was clear he was getting really popular, he was moved over to RAW (the A brand), and they moved Batista over to SD (the B brand). Cena then worked with Triple H and went over.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of a nice little story.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid Don't let CyNick see this. He has more of an understanding about the business than The Undertaker, after all.

What territory did Undertaker book?

The concept of the brand extension is fine. in theory But the reality is it doesnt work. Monday Night is the flagship, always will be. If they did a real brand extension; say Cena heads up the Monday tour and Reigns headlines the Tuesday tour. If Cena goes down with an injury that puts him on the shelf for 12 months, they will take the biggest star from Tuesday and put him on Monday to fill the gap. The tours will always be booked with the A town and B town mentality. You cant have a bunch of A towns booked, then your top guy goes down, and say "oh well, there's a brand extension, we cant bring talent over from the B tour to fill in". But then the minute you do that, you make the brand extension meaningless.

On top of that, any stars that get over on Smackdown to any major degree will be bumped up to RAW. And this will be at the talent's request, because those pay days from the shows in Chicago are much better than the paydays in Peoria. you cant blame the WWE for doing this, because Monday is the A show, Monday brings you in the big TV revenue, so you have to cater to that show. Again, it would just make SD look like NXT.

[SlickyTrickyDamon]

Why is all of the brand split talk happening? Was there a report it was coming back? I liked the original idea of it. They were supposed to make the secondary titles more important but soon after Bischoff came in and took the IC championship away.

WWE Champion should be both-brands. It should be be the same way again but with two secondary titles.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid The benefits have already been summed up by The Undertaker, but you do make a good point about John Cena being someone special. That being said, you cannot deny that the booking for some guys has done its absolute best to fuck up the momentum of a lot of guys, possibly so they don't get too hot because the WWE wants everyone to be luke-warm so no one has the confidence to do a Bobby Lashley or whatever. The WWE actually does have a lot of guys who could potentially serve as hooks and get people more invested in the product. Dean Ambrose was getting really hot last year, and was almost as equally important to the show as John Cena was. Then they had Ambrose lose any sense of direction and start losing on basically every PPV until Extreme Rules. Bray Wyatt could have been a new era's top heel, but instead he's spent the last two WrestleMania events losing, proving that he's all talk. Cesaro was presented as a world-beater at WrestleMania XXX, then had the world beat him. Not one of those guys is John Cena, but not one of those guys needs to be -- after all, they still have John Cena. There's no reason you cannot present them in a way that allows fans who like them to feel that their emotional investment is going to lead to memories being made -- memories that invariably fuel their fandom of the product. Earlier this year -- despite me thinking it was possibly the stupidest direction to take a once great personality -- Damien Sandow got really fucking over building up tension between himself and The Miz. Where is Sandow now? He's nowhere. Don't tell me that guy wouldn't benefit by being on a different show right now.

See again, and I hate harping on this, but you sound like you are parroting the dirt sheet writers. Like as though the WWE decision makers have some fascination with pissing money away. The sports entertainment business is very subjective. There is no metric like their time in a 40 yard dash to tell you "yes, this guy will get over". But why would WWE prevent someone who could be a Steve Austin or a John Cena from reaching those heights? Its in their best interest to have that happen. The problem is fans and critics get too wrapped up in a few talents, and it clouds their judgment.

I remember when I made my highly anticipated return here, and read a post about how great Ryback was. I was shocked. I couldnt believe ANYONE saw Ryback as a potential headliner. But someone did. To me, he's just another guy, he's no better or worse than The Miz or a Dolph Ziggler. Nice hands, but they'll never take you to the promise land. Now, are they caught up in some glass ceiling BS or do they just lack all the tools you need to be elite in this game? In my view, I can see the massive holes in the respective games. But other people will say "oh Triple H this or Stephanie that or Vince is old, blah blah blah". I guess its open to interpretation.

The issue I think people have with the booking is there is a segment of the audience that wants to see the next guy breakthrough, and they want it to happen NOW. The problem is if you look at history, even the all time greats took YEARS to get established. The Rock is probably the greatest pure talent in the history of the game, but it took him 2 years of middling programs before they put the big belt on them, and probably another 4 months before he was booked as a strong main eventer and not a chicken shit heel. Same with HHH, actually longer with him, and Austin as well. You cant push Cesaro, Owens, Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose, Wyatt, and Ryback as main eventers all at the same time. There's not enough main event spots for that. Its Rollins time, its Reigns' time. In time, some of these other guys will get a shot.

Sandow is just a comedy act. Its like saying why didnt Paul Heyman take it to the next level with the Blue Meanie. He's just a joke guy. Thats all he will ever be. Have you ever seen him work an actual match? He cant hold the crowd for more than 2 minutes. You want him headlining PPVs?

[Wishbone]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Actually Cena is a great example of why the brand extension was a joke and a failure. Once it was clear he was getting really popular, he was moved over to RAW (the A brand), and they moved Batista over to SD (the B brand). Cena then worked with Triple H and went over. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a nice little story.

No, all that proves is that WWE was stupid back then as it is now. They moved him because to THEM RAW was the "A" show and Smackdown the "B" show. And because they presented it that way the fans began to believe it too. The brand split failed because WWE failed to actually commit to it.

Originally Posted by The CyNick What territory did Undertaker book?

What Territory did YOU book? At least he has actual experience in the business instead of just being some armchair booker like yourself who thinks he knows more about the wrestling business just because he's watched it from the outside.

[Wishbone]

Originally Posted by SlickyTrickyDamon Why is all of the brand split talk happening? Was there a report it was coming back? I liked the original idea of it. They were supposed to make the secondary titles more important but soon after Bischoff came in and took the IC championship away. WWE Champion should be both-brands. It should be be the same way again but with two secondary titles.

Nah, just an argument involving booking and somehow the brand split got brought up.

[Wishbone]

Originally Posted by The CyNick The issue I think people have with the booking is there is a segment of the audience that wants to see the next guy breakthrough, and they want it to happen NOW. The problem is if you look at history, even the all time greats took YEARS to get established. The Rock is probably the greatest pure talent in the history of the game, but it took him 2 years of middling programs before they put the big belt on them, and probably another 4 months before he was booked as a strong main eventer and not a chicken shit heel. Same with HHH, actually longer with him, and Austin as well. You cant push Cesaro, Owens, Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose, Wyatt, and Ryback as main eventers all at the same time. There's not enough main event spots for that. Its Rollins time, its Reigns' time. In time, some of these other guys will get a shot.

That's EXACTLY what we're all saying! It takes time, effort, good stories, etc to build a superstar. They're not just magically there. No one, not you, not me, not Vince McMahon saw Dwayne Johnson as being the "next big thing" when he premiered. To everyone he was thought of just the way you described Ryback, Ziggler, etc. He was just another guy. It took time and effort put into him to build him into "The Rock". No one is saying that Cesaro, Owens, or even Reigns should be pushed to the moon right this second. What we're saying is that they should be given the chance to actually develop the way the Rock did. Actually put them in matches and feuds that matter and let them actually build steam. Don't put them in shit feuds and stories only to get buried over and over again until they're doing love triangle stories that belong on Jerry Springer.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Wishbone basically did all the schooling that needs to be done here. I can't believe you label people are parroting dirt sheet writers and then don't listen to the guys that actually have experience in the business.

Just to correct you though, Wishbone -- a few people did see money in The Rock when they first saw him. Jim Cornette definitely did, and I believe Jim Ross did too. Cornette, in particular, told Vince McMahon to present The Rock well, because he'll be your World Champion in five years. Then The Rock did it in like two. He actually had a very meteoric rise where he was presented well, so I don't know what CyNick is saying about this journeyman story for him, not that this was anyone's point to retort in the first place.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I can intellectually appreciate the desire to have one World Champion. I really can. Emotionally, I just don't feel it working though. It's the same reason a Cruiserweight Title is actually a bad idea. You'll either end up with cruiserweights that are too good for the Cruiserweight Title, rendering it meaningless; or a bunch of guys fighting for the "little man's" championship and never getting out.

I don't think you can call for the creative teams to be autonomous AND have some sort of shared stake to the championship. Maybe in a perfect world, but I just can't see the collaboration needed to put together what would essentially be joint PPVs happening with one World Championship. That's just my feeling on the matter -- I'd eat my words if they pulled it off.

[Damian Rey]

It can be executed properly. If the both the IC and US titles are presented the way the US title was when Cena held it, they become big deals.

If Owens win the IC strap and a returning Orton suddenly sets his sight on winning it from KO, that belt is instantly elevated because Orton matters.

Now imagine that program headlining one show exclusively, presented as a big deal main event and the primary storyline of the show. If you tell the fans its a big deal and book it as such, the fans will buy into it, much like they bought into Cena's US title run.

The world champ can have on going feuds with one guy over a number of weeks to culminate at a big show. It does not have to be defended 12 times a year. Nor does the champ have to wrestle everyv week.

I found it incredibly refreshing during Lesnar's run that he only had 4 total defenses after 8 months with the top title. The belt being on the line became more important and much more of a spectacle and attraction instead of a prop and seeming obligation.

The question is whether there's the creative wherewithal to execute it properly.

[loopydate]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Actually Cena is a great example of why the brand extension was a joke and a failure. Once it was clear he was getting really popular, he was moved over to RAW (the A brand), and they moved Batista over to SD (the B brand). Cena then worked with Triple H and went over. But hey, why let facts get in the way of a nice little story.

I could say the same thing.

Cena only got over because he was given a chance to develop on a show with half a roster. If he had come in as the Prototype and had to compete with Evolution, Steiner, Booker, and the rest of the guys on the Raw roster in addition to the guys he was already up against on SmackDown for air time, he'd have been released within a year.

[Wishbone]

Originally Posted by Noid Wishbone basically did all the schooling that needs to be done here. I can't believe you label people are parroting dirt sheet writers and then don't listen to the guys that actually have experience in the business. Just to correct you though, Wishbone -- a few people did see money in The Rock when they first saw him. Jim Cornette definitely did, and I believe Jim Ross did too. Cornette, in particular, told Vince McMahon to present The Rock well, because he'll be your World Champion in five years. Then The Rock did it in like two. He actually had a very meteoric rise where he was presented well, so I don't know what CyNick is saying about this journeyman story for him, not that this was anyone's point to retort in the first place.

Ah, thanks for the correction, dude. Still I think it's safe to say that almost no fans thought he'd be a big deal upon his premier, and given said premier I'd say Vince probably didn't think there was much stock in him either at first, which is all the more reason I think brushing off guys like CyNick is just stupid. We really don't know what could be until it's been tried. Although I probably don't need to tell you that.

[Wishbone]

Originally Posted by Noid I can intellectually appreciate the desire to have one World Champion. I really can. Emotionally, I just don't feel it working though. It's the same reason a Cruiserweight Title is actually a bad idea. You'll either end up with cruiserweights that are too good for the Cruiserweight Title, rendering it meaningless; or a bunch of guys fighting for the "little man's" championship and never getting out. I don't think you can call for the creative teams to be autonomous AND have some sort of shared stake to the championship. Maybe in a perfect world, but I just can't see the collaboration needed to put together what would essentially be joint PPVs happening with one World Championship. That's just my feeling on the matter -- I'd eat my words if they pulled it off.

Honestly I think it could be done quite well. Just not with the current writers and people in charge since they seem to have trouble dealing with one show.

Personally I'd say have two different teams working on each show and then a third much smaller team working on the world title scene. I mean there'd be issues to sort out for sure, but if comic books and the DC shows can do shared universe crap with different stories and writers I don't see why a couple of wrestling shows couldn't.

[Emperor Smeat]

Dirtsheets sponsored by New BAD Day:

Originally Posted by Observer The big news of the day is Dixie Carter telling Sports Illustrated that TNA is, as of right now, done with Destination America after the end of the year. The article actually has another passage that says they're done as of February, and we're waiting to hear back as to what it's actually supposed to say. Regardless, it looks like Destination America is doing exactly what Spike did last year, which is give TNA some extra time to find a new network.

Extension can be cut short if TNA manages to find a new deal and transition to the new network prior to February. Same happened with Spike once TNA got settled in early than planned with DA.

Damien Sandow was wearing his old blue robe when he came out for tonight's dark match win over Adam Rose in Little Rock, Arkansas. He worked as a babyface and was also back to wearing his old gear, as seen below. Sandow also cut a promo and said he is back, as The Voice of Common Sense, not a stunt double.

Originally Posted by Observer WWE officials have reportedly reached out to all talents, including those no longer wrestling but still affiliated with the company, and told them not to have any contact with Hulk Hogan due to the racist comments scandal. This comes after Hogan recently went on a media tour in hope of getting back with the company. Hogan has an upcoming one-night appearance in the UK with former WWE talents Lanny Poffo, Jimmy Hart, Outback Jack, Bushwacker Luke and Fred Ottman (Tugboat)

Originally Posted by Observer There is said to be serious talk within WWE of ending the current storyline with Rusev, Summer Rae, Dolph Ziggler and Lana with Lana being put back with Rusev. The feeling is that both the Rusev and Lana characters ended up weaker when they were apart. It may be a while before the decision is made as Lana can't return to action for four months.

Tonight's TNA Impact Wrestling is being billed as winner takes all as Jeff Jarrett and Dixie Carter leads teams into the Lethal Lockdown, with the loser being gone "forever" and the winner getting the entire company Well, art is imitating life, which is imitating art as PWInsider.com has confirmed that the deal that saw Jarrett return to TNA for this storyline included Dixie Carter/Panda Energy buying Jarrett out of his minority ownership of TNA Wrestling. TNA, when asked for comment this morning, sent the following statement: The real-life drama between Dixie Carter and Jeff Jarrett, that for weeks has played out on IMPACT WRESTLING, will all come to a head tonight in a shares vs shares, Winner Take All match. It is true that if Dixie's Team TNA defeats Team GFW, Dixie will acquire Jeff's shares in TNA and he will no longer be a stakeholder ... Panda was pitched and purchased the majority ownership in the company, with The Jarretts each retaining a minority share. Jerry was later bought out while Jeff retained his shares ... The deal allows for both sides to end up parting on good terms. Dixie Carter and Panda Energy get complete ownership of Dixie's company. Jarrett gets bought out and is given some nice "parting gifts" as the deal also saw Jarrett brought back for a final storyline, be put over at Slammiversary, be inducted into the TNA Hall of Fame (which I am told was added later after the initial deal was agreed upon), be given promotion for Jarrett's Global Force Wrestling promotion on TNA TV and GFW having the rights to book TNA talents on their events.

Debunks the rumors of a possible GFW-TNA merger or Jarrett using TNA as an easy way to get a tv deal for GFW.

Originally Posted by PWI The 9/15 episode of WWE Total Divas garnered 804,000 viewers for the episode built around Paige's engagement and Daniel Bryan's health, down from the previous week's 1,143,0000 viewers.

Originally Posted by Observer The positives WWE has right now is that they are really the only game in town to all but a tiny percentage of a wrestling fan base. But in being the only game in town, the popularity of pro wrestling is declining, even as some media sources in recent weeks have made the laughable statements that it is the most popular of any period in history, being manipulated by irrelevant numbers ... However, the show can change its predictable pattern. The opening interview segment to set up the show inherently isn’t bad, but it would be better most weeks with half the time. The interviews, with the exception of the elite few, need an overhaul. For one, the verbiage feels overly scripted and when it does, whatever goal or message is lost ... What’s weird is, and there are always exceptions, but as a general rule, the promos, both believability and effectiveness, of wrestlers in the non-scripted generation blow the current generation out of the water. Having seen this generation’s guys outside the scripted environment, while not all are great, almost all are better unscripted. There are also issues of context. Throwing out matches, even with big names and being of good quality, with no importance, has its limitations. My turn, your turn booking has created the generation of midcarders. Sting, a midcarder with some natural charisma, became an overnight superstar because he went to a 45 minute draw with Ric Flair on television. But the key was the follow-up. Had Flair then beaten Sting once each of the next two months on television, with a submission in the third match, Sting would have never been the enduring star he was. Similarly, if Undertaker, or Ultimate Warrior lost half the time on television in their first year, they’d have never gotten out of the blocks. Yet, even with Kevin Owens, a guy they were trying to make fast and the most promising talker in developmental, they gave him the big win first, and figured since they gave him that win, they could beat him constantly. So instead of being a top tier superstar, he joins the fun sea of very talented mid-carders, guys that fans know, think of as stars, have good matches, but their ability to move the needle is minimized. Even though it didn’t work, the creation of records like with Nikki Bella’s streak, put more emphasis on the Divas title than any time in recent memory. The Twin Magic screwjob finish which is fine in certain situations, but somewhat out of context given the type of emphasis on the match, did make sense to build the rematch on the PPV. But the follow-up has to be strong ... If things are presented as if they don’t matter, in almost every case, they won’t. If they don’t matter to the participant, it’s hard for them to matter to the fan. One of the reasons real sports work is the ramifications, the exhilaration of the win, the disappointment of the loss, and even more, the follow-up. The loser creates a story as to either the mistakes he’s made, what he’s learned and how he’ll change things, or, if it is legitimate based on what happens, blames an outside party for derailing his upward mobility. When upward mobility doesn’t exist, and the context of wins and losses don’t matter, you lose a key interest element. But you also need variety in a three-hour show. That is, very different personas, which WWE somewhat has, and a wide variety of styles, which WWE has less of than many other wrestling companies with far less resources. But all of those are minor points. The key is making larger-than-life superstars. Whether it’s Bruno Sammartino and Superstar Graham, or Dusty Rhodes, or Hulk Hogan, or Steve Austin and The Rock, or Randy Savage, Ric Flair, Antonio Inoki, Perro Aguayo, Konnan, Mistico, or Ali, Mayweather, Leonard, or today’s Rousey and McGregor, the boom periods are either created by technological changes or larger-than-life superstars. More then boxing or MMA, pro wrestling has more ability to create them, since they can fully script their storylines and control all their outcomes to maximum benefit. But they haven’t, and for whatever reason, have dropped the ball frequently when the seeds of momentum are there because of having pigeon-holed themselves into a mentality that while certain guys are fine on the show, only a certain type can be that larger than life star ... Yet, ironically, staring them in the face is a 5-foot-9 skinny Irishman and a woman who they are desperate to copy, yet the people in charge have absolutely no idea how she got there. And they don’t allow people to be themselves and tell their real stories enough to take advantage of what they are to have them connect at the same level ... Wrestling at its best should be something you look forward to every week and when it’s over, can’t wait to see what happens next. It should not be something where you feel like you deserve a medal just for being able to sit through it and maintain interest in the third hour.

Part of a longer article from the Observer countering the stuff in the Grantland article about wrestling and the WWE expericing a boom in mainstream popularity. Biggest issue with the article was the numbers used were stuff manipulated by the WWE to look good to investors.


Some other sheet news includes:

• The upcoming Camp WWE cartoon got delayed due to the WWE wanting Hogan removed. 2nd time its been delayed due to someone needing to be removed (CM Punk).
• Current announced matches for October's NXT Special are Sasha vs Bayley for the NXT Women's title, the semis for the Dusty Tag Classic Tournament, and the finals for the Dusty Tag Classic Tournament.
• Recent Micheal Cole WWE.com interview segment had Triple H as his guest with the topics involving the future of the WWE, NXT, and Seth Rollins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8TuvBH4yxQ
• This week's TPWW TLP podcast episode was released today: http://tablesladderspodcast.podbean....st-121-160915/
• Recent Jim Ross podcast episode with guest Justin Roberts had Roberts stating the idea of breaks or vacations for wrestlers will never work in the WWE until management moves away from ridiculing and "punishing" those who take or request them.

[Sepholio]

Wrestlers should get like 4 months off a year, other than maybe an occasional appearance in a non-match role. Good for the wrestlers obviously, but also gives time to other talent to shine a little bit more. Plus rotating people in and out would make seeing the same people every week a little less ho-hum.

[XL]

Originally Posted by The CyNick See again, and I hate harping on this, but you sound like you are parroting the dirt sheet writers. Like as though the WWE decision makers have some fascination with pissing money away. The sports entertainment business is very subjective. There is no metric like their time in a 40 yard dash to tell you "yes, this guy will get over". But why would WWE prevent someone who could be a Steve Austin or a John Cena from reaching those heights? Its in their best interest to have that happen. The problem is fans and critics get too wrapped up in a few talents, and it clouds their judgment. I remember when I made my highly anticipated return here, and read a post about how great Ryback was. I was shocked. I couldnt believe ANYONE saw Ryback as a potential headliner. But someone did. To me, he's just another guy, he's no better or worse than The Miz or a Dolph Ziggler. Nice hands, but they'll never take you to the promise land. Now, are they caught up in some glass ceiling BS or do they just lack all the tools you need to be elite in this game? In my view, I can see the massive holes in the respective games. But other people will say "oh Triple H this or Stephanie that or Vince is old, blah blah blah". I guess its open to interpretation. The issue I think people have with the booking is there is a segment of the audience that wants to see the next guy breakthrough, and they want it to happen NOW. The problem is if you look at history, even the all time greats took YEARS to get established. The Rock is probably the greatest pure talent in the history of the game, but it took him 2 years of middling programs before they put the big belt on them, and probably another 4 months before he was booked as a strong main eventer and not a chicken shit heel. Same with HHH, actually longer with him, and Austin as well. You cant push Cesaro, Owens, Reigns, Rollins, Ambrose, Wyatt, and Ryback as main eventers all at the same time. There's not enough main event spots for that. Its Rollins time, its Reigns' time. In time, some of these other guys will get a shot. Sandow is just a comedy act. Its like saying why didnt Paul Heyman take it to the next level with the Blue Meanie. He's just a joke guy. Thats all he will ever be. Have you ever seen him work an actual match? He cant hold the crowd for more than 2 minutes. You want him headlining PPVs?

Just to pick up on that last point: this is the underlying problem with your mentality, and unfortunately it seems to be shared by the guys booking/running WWE; if a guy can't be "The Guy" then he's worthless.

Literally nobody is saying Sandow should be headlining. What they are saying is that Sandow has *some* value that's been wasted. Whether he's headliner material or not there was a period at the start of the year where the crowd were into the guy and WWE pissed it away.

Who's saying that Ziggler/Owens/Rusev/Cesaro can "lead the company to its next book period"? Sure there will be guys that want those individuals to we World Champ by next Monday but for the most part they just want these guys used BETTER.

If Cesaro can't be a 10/10, he might be able to be an &/10 but he's being presented as a 5/10. And they are seemingly reluctant to help him get to 8/10.

For me it'd better to have a bunch of 8/10s and a couple 10/10s (Cena, Lesnar) instead of a whole bunch of 5/10s and your two top guys.

It's great having these tip-top guys but can you hold the attention of your audience for 3 hours based on the 40 mins that they work? The whole show needs to be firing on all cyclinders. Or at least trying.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Good explanation, XL.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Some guys are overexposed. Sheamus immediately comes to mind. The dude can work, has got an intimidating look and can even talk. I imagine him facing The Rock, doing that pull to the top rope thing he does, coming off with a battering ram and sending The Rock flying across the ring with the ridiculous selling he does and it is marvelous. But he's on TV every week cutting cookie-cutter promos basically playing "grouchy coward who does his moves."

I wonder why they have Seth Rollins do story time in the opening segment and then do a backstage interview later in the show (I've noticed this double-up a lot lately). It is probably to fill time, but I always preferred his backstage segments. I used to think it might have just been the presentation, but Rollins is actually sharper in those interview segments. Could it be because they are less scripted? Here's a guy who used to pluck Jim Cornette for advice. I can't believe he's not thinking of promos for his matches all the time. Occasionally it seems like he gets one in around the times he is rehearsing lines.

[Mr. Nerfect]

I've decided that I really want to see a heel Eddie and Orlando Colon vs. face Dudley Boyz feud. I don't know why, but I just feel like that would be tag team greatness.

[Innovator]

That time the Women's Title changed hands because HBK said so

[EzekielKane]

Originally Posted by Innovator That time the Women's Title changed hands because HBK said so

lol forgot Debra existed until now...

[Emperor Smeat]

[Nicky Fives]

Originally Posted by Seph Wrestlers should get like 4 months off a year, other than maybe an occasional appearance in a non-match role. Good for the wrestlers obviously, but also gives time to other talent to shine a little bit more. Plus rotating people in and out would make seeing the same people every week a little less ho-hum.

in a perfect world that may happen, but nobody is going to pay talent just to keep them off tv, not will they be able to sign an exclusive contract because the talent would not be paid enough to sit at home for those 4 months and not work elsewhere.....

[Rammsteinmad]

Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball

Kickout at never?

[Evil Vito]

The more I think about the possibility of a legit wrestling "off-season" the more I love the idea. WrestleMania. The red hot Raw the next night. Maybe even a live SmackDown on Tuesday as sort of a "preview" to set the stage for the upcoming season.

Then, they go on break. "Best of" shows or old PPVs or something are shown in the current TV timeslots along with hype of the new season. Then whenever the new "season" starts, brand new storylines commence and everyone is refreshed and interested again. Much more interesting than the usual course of the post-WM PPV which is to just rehash the same programs all month.

I realize it will never happen because of the impact on ratings during the month or so they are off not to mention losing the revenue from a month of live events, but fuck it would be nice to give everyone a chance to rest and recharge.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Wishbone No, all that proves is that WWE was stupid back then as it is now. They moved him because to THEM RAW was the "A" show and Smackdown the "B" show. And because they presented it that way the fans began to believe it too. The brand split failed because WWE failed to actually commit to it. What Territory did YOU book? At least he has actual experience in the business instead of just being some armchair booker like yourself who thinks he knows more about the wrestling business just because he's watched it from the outside.

So in your mind RAW shouldnt be booked as the A show? At the end of the day TV contracts should dictate which is the A show and which is the B show. For example, if SD were to get on NBC in prime time, and for some reason NBC paid more for the property than USA is paying for RAW, then you load up SD, and that becomes the A tour. There's reality of the business that some people cant seem to grasp.

Thats not fair. I dont claim to know more than the people who run WWE. Thats what people on places like this do. "Oh if only WWE knew how to book Dean Ambrose would be leading the WWE into another Attitude Era, but sources say Triple H doesnt like Dean because of his ratty wife beaters, and because he refuses to go to the gym with him and Sheamus, and therefore he wont get pushed. Of course plans can always change".

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Wishbone That's EXACTLY what we're all saying! It takes time, effort, good stories, etc to build a superstar. They're not just magically there. No one, not you, not me, not Vince McMahon saw Dwayne Johnson as being the "next big thing" when he premiered. To everyone he was thought of just the way you described Ryback, Ziggler, etc. He was just another guy. It took time and effort put into him to build him into "The Rock". No one is saying that Cesaro, Owens, or even Reigns should be pushed to the moon right this second. What we're saying is that they should be given the chance to actually develop the way the Rock did. Actually put them in matches and feuds that matter and let them actually build steam. Don't put them in shit feuds and stories only to get buried over and over again until they're doing love triangle stories that belong on Jerry Springer.

Actually, they did see DJ as the next best thing, they just gave him a gimmick that didnt catch on.

no no, read the threads on this site. Lots of people say all those guys you mentioned should be headlining right now. And 50-50 booking hurts them.

What shit storyline has Kevin Owens been in? Bray Wyatt? Ambrose? Most of these guys have been booked well, they just are in the slot below main event status. But some people see that as ruining them.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid Wishbone basically did all the schooling that needs to be done here. I can't believe you label people are parroting dirt sheet writers and then don't listen to the guys that actually have experience in the business. Just to correct you though, Wishbone -- a few people did see money in The Rock when they first saw him. Jim Cornette definitely did, and I believe Jim Ross did too. Cornette, in particular, told Vince McMahon to present The Rock well, because he'll be your World Champion in five years. Then The Rock did it in like two. He actually had a very meteoric rise where he was presented well, so I don't know what CyNick is saying about this journeyman story for him, not that this was anyone's point to retort in the first place.

Three things:

1. I dont claim to know the business better than Vince and co. Thats the gimmick of the dirt sheet writers so they can get rubes to pay $11 a month to hear them bellyache.

2. Everyone saw the potential in DJ. Watch the promos leading up to his debut. The WWE knew what they had. He just debuted with a bad gimmick.

3. Because of the bad gimmick his push was cooled off. He was put in random programs for a while until he finally hit his stride with the heel turn. My point is, just because Rock didnt headline Wrestlemania 13, doesnt mean it prevented him from headlining Wrestlemania after Wrestlemania after that. Similarly a guy like Cesaro or Owens will have the opportunity to get there as well. But will they be like DJ and knock it out of the park or will they fall on their face. Thats up to the talent, there's no hidden agenda against those guys reaching Rocky level success.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid I can intellectually appreciate the desire to have one World Champion. I really can. Emotionally, I just don't feel it working though. It's the same reason a Cruiserweight Title is actually a bad idea. You'll either end up with cruiserweights that are too good for the Cruiserweight Title, rendering it meaningless; or a bunch of guys fighting for the "little man's" championship and never getting out. I don't think you can call for the creative teams to be autonomous AND have some sort of shared stake to the championship. Maybe in a perfect world, but I just can't see the collaboration needed to put together what would essentially be joint PPVs happening with one World Championship. That's just my feeling on the matter -- I'd eat my words if they pulled it off.

Having two world champions is equivalent to having no world champions. Essentially you are just creating two secondary championships.

The whole point of a World Championship is to say this guy is #1. If you have two guys claiming to be #1, neither really is.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by loopydate I could say the same thing. Cena only got over because he was given a chance to develop on a show with half a roster. If he had come in as the Prototype and had to compete with Evolution, Steiner, Booker, and the rest of the guys on the Raw roster in addition to the guys he was already up against on SmackDown for air time, he'd have been released within a year.

First, Cena's talent would have won the day. Steiner and Booker cant hang with Cena, that would have been clear within a month. Second, Cena had an advantage because he had the look that Vince likes, and the look that seems to get over with the WWE Universe, so he would not have been released.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Wishbone Ah, thanks for the correction, dude. Still I think it's safe to say that almost no fans thought he'd be a big deal upon his premier, and given said premier I'd say Vince probably didn't think there was much stock in him either at first, which is all the more reason I think brushing off guys like CyNick is just stupid. We really don't know what could be until it's been tried. Although I probably don't need to tell you that.

If you were watching WWE in 96 you would realize how off you are about Dwayne.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by XL Just to pick up on that last point: this is the underlying problem with your mentality, and unfortunately it seems to be shared by the guys booking/running WWE; if a guy can't be "The Guy" then he's worthless. Literally nobody is saying Sandow should be headlining. What they are saying is that Sandow has *some* value that's been wasted. Whether he's headliner material or not there was a period at the start of the year where the crowd were into the guy and WWE pissed it away. Who's saying that Ziggler/Owens/Rusev/Cesaro can "lead the company to its next book period"? Sure there will be guys that want those individuals to we World Champ by next Monday but for the most part they just want these guys used BETTER. If Cesaro can't be a 10/10, he might be able to be an &/10 but he's being presented as a 5/10. And they are seemingly reluctant to help him get to 8/10. For me it'd better to have a bunch of 8/10s and a couple 10/10s (Cena, Lesnar) instead of a whole bunch of 5/10s and your two top guys. It's great having these tip-top guys but can you hold the attention of your audience for 3 hours based on the 40 mins that they work? The whole show needs to be firing on all cyclinders. Or at least trying.

But Sandow WAS used to his complete potential. He's a funny guy, who pretty much blows in the ring. So they put him with Miz, got months and months out of a storyline, did the blow off, and then that was it. They even managed to find Sandow yet another comedy angle to work, and it was one of those things that was funny one time, but not something you are going to get long term benefit from.

People dont seem to get that the spots on TV and Network Specials are VERY limited. Just being a steady feature on the Network Specials is a big deal. You have most months 7 matches per show. At least one will be a Divas match, one will likely be a tag. So you're left with about 12-15 spots. So where do you want them to go with guys? Whats wrong with where Cesaro is right now? He just worked with Kevin Owens, who is now in an IC title fight. Who's spot should he have?

The way WWE books right now is you have your top guys (basically Cena and Rollins right now), you have some part timers who come in now and then, but primarily for Mania (Lesnar, Taker, Trips, Rock, Sting, Jericho, etc), and then you have a glut of guys who get monthly programs and are on TV every week (Reigns, Ambrose, Wyatt, Ryback, Cesaro, Owens, Sheamus, Orton, etc). And then you have a few jobberish guys who are just on RAW to get beat up but are known characters.

I just dont get where people think some of these guys should be right this moment, unless you think they should with Rollins and Cena.

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid Some guys are overexposed. Sheamus immediately comes to mind. The dude can work, has got an intimidating look and can even talk. I imagine him facing The Rock, doing that pull to the top rope thing he does, coming off with a battering ram and sending The Rock flying across the ring with the ridiculous selling he does and it is marvelous. But he's on TV every week cutting cookie-cutter promos basically playing "grouchy coward who does his moves." I wonder why they have Seth Rollins do story time in the opening segment and then do a backstage interview later in the show (I've noticed this double-up a lot lately). It is probably to fill time, but I always preferred his backstage segments. I used to think it might have just been the presentation, but Rollins is actually sharper in those interview segments. Could it be because they are less scripted? Here's a guy who used to pluck Jim Cornette for advice. I can't believe he's not thinking of promos for his matches all the time. Occasionally it seems like he gets one in around the times he is rehearsing lines.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Sheamus, but he has to be featured every week because they put the MITB on him. Obviously WWE has some long term plan with him, so gotta let that play out and see where it takes us.

[Dark One]

Cool stuff.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Three things: 1. I dont claim to know the business better than Vince and co. Thats the gimmick of the dirt sheet writers so they can get rubes to pay $11 a month to hear them bellyache. 2. Everyone saw the potential in DJ. Watch the promos leading up to his debut. The WWE knew what they had. He just debuted with a bad gimmick. 3. Because of the bad gimmick his push was cooled off. He was put in random programs for a while until he finally hit his stride with the heel turn. My point is, just because Rock didnt headline Wrestlemania 13, doesnt mean it prevented him from headlining Wrestlemania after Wrestlemania after that. Similarly a guy like Cesaro or Owens will have the opportunity to get there as well. But will they be like DJ and knock it out of the park or will they fall on their face. Thats up to the talent, there's no hidden agenda against those guys reaching Rocky level success.

1. Yes, you absolutely are. You're just attributing their viewpoints to the "dirt sheets" because it suits you.

2. Yes, they did. Casual fans may not have seen anything special though, since his original babyface appearances were so bad.

3. My point was that The Rock had an incredibly fast rise. He was the youngest WWE Champion up until that point in history. He's not really a great example to use when it comes to guys "struggling" for years. Fuck, use Bradshaw.

[Mr. Nerfect]

Originally Posted by The CyNick Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Sheamus, but he has to be featured every week because they put the MITB on him. Obviously WWE has some long term plan with him, so gotta let that play out and see where it takes us.

I don't think I agree with this. I mean, I get your point -- building him would seem wise -- but they tend to fuck up Money in the Bank Winners. It might have been cooler to have Sheamus win the briefcase then disappear. Everyone would know he held it, but the next time you see him is when he's cashing in. Maybe it'll get a reaction that way?

[The CyNick]

Originally Posted by Noid 1. Yes, you absolutely are. You're just attributing their viewpoints to the "dirt sheets" because it suits you. 2. Yes, they did. Casual fans may not have seen anything special though, since his original babyface appearances were so bad. 3. My point was that The Rock had an incredibly fast rise. He was the youngest WWE Champion up until that point in history. He's not really a great example to use when it comes to guys "struggling" for years. Fuck, use Bradshaw.

I only snipe at people who claim they know how to book better than the guy who turned a carny business into a nearly multi billion dollar empire.

People on here are complaining about guys like Kevin Owens, who have been on TV for 6 months. This would be like complaining that Rock didnt work Mania v Taker and instead was facing The Sultan. Thats my point. Which is a good one if I dont say so myself.