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Old 09-09-2019, 04:04 PM   #2041
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If they go with Nyla Rose as their first women's champion, it's gonna be really weird.
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:28 PM   #2042
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Why?
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:59 PM   #2043
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Why?
The "That's a Man!" Section.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:31 PM   #2044
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A) It’s gonna be viewed as a publicity stunt. Probably rightfully so.

B) In the middle of a “women’s revolution” in wrestling, the idea that a biological male was the best choice to be their first women’s champion is an odd “progressive” statement to make. It’s great for trans women but also makes a bit of an odd progressive statement in a physical, albeit scripted, sport where a biological male would have a HUGE advantage over a biological female.

There’s a lot to unpack with the situation.

That being said, as I said earlier in the thread, if she goes full heel and basically just crushes the competition while telling them “I was born better” with a wink and a nod, it would be fucking awesome and whoever dethrones her would be made. 0% chance that happens though.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:46 PM   #2045
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A) It’s gonna be viewed as a publicity stunt. Probably rightfully so.

B) In the middle of a “women’s revolution” in wrestling, the idea that a biological male was the best choice to be their first women’s champion is an odd “progressive” statement to make. It’s great for trans women but also makes a bit of an odd progressive statement in a physical, albeit scripted, sport where a biological male would have a HUGE advantage over a biological female.

There’s a lot to unpack with the situation.

That being said, as I said earlier in the thread, if she goes full heel and basically just crushes the competition while telling them “I was born better” with a wink and a nod, it would be fucking awesome and whoever dethrones her would be made. 0% chance that happens though.
It is not like they are throwing a dress on one of their clownshoes talent like a la Santino Marella or Harvey Wgippleman and giving him the belt. There is a difference between "Joe-Ann" Janella as women's champion and Nyla Rose as such. One is a guy in a dress winning a belt to make fun of the idea of Transgender women and the other is Transgender.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:58 PM   #2046
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Everything Fan said there is pretty accurate. Like it or not, athletics of any kind is the one area where being transgender has a very noticeable impact. There's a distinct reason why this is the most commonly discussed aspect of the transgender issue. People aren't blind to what's happening in a lot of competitions right now and the controversy over it is building fairly rapidly.

Men who transition to women have a distinct advantage over other women in competition at a base level. But if you decide that people have to compete as their birth sex, then a different issue arises. Women transitioning to men who are competing against other women would have a huge advantage from testosterone therapy. There are a lot of different issues here and no easy way to solve them.
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:02 PM   #2047
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Fans hypothetical scenario would also absolutely be the most incredible way to work this angle too. But he's also right that it will never happen. The optics and publicity if they did it would be BRUTAL and there is no way in hell they risk that, especially this early in the game. Imagine all the shit flinging about "AEW BLATANTLY SAYS MEN ARE BETTER THAN WOMEN!!!!!". Hoooooo boy.
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:05 PM   #2048
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I think it's pretty clear they're gonna crown Rose champ. And I'm guessing it's gonna be a squash.
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:15 PM   #2049
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Right. I’m not saying the idea is a joke ala a jobber in drag winning a women’s title. I’m speaking strictly about the idea that she would basically be using the physical advantage of being a biological male to top all women as the first women’s champion. And it’s odd that it would be looked at as this huge milestone for trans women while there’s this elephant in the room of “No shit, a trans woman beat the shit out of a bunch of biological women. She was born a fucking man.” Especially in this “women’s revolution” era.
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:26 PM   #2050
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I think that their long game is to crown her the first women's champion, obv make someone a star off of her, but then to have Nyla win one of the other championships to further validate her and the other women by proxy.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:33 PM   #2051
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I know #fan isn’t being intentionally disrespectful or anything, and I understand the PR stunt perspective, but the whole “trans women are biologically male” take is quite out-dated, not scientific and not going to get airplay by too many outside the transphobes. Trans women are women.

It is going to be seen as a publicity stunt though, and it’s naive to think it’s not, because we don’t even know if Nyla is good yet. That being said, as far as PR stunts go, whatever. It’s promoting. They’re going after some goodwill from progressive audiences. It wouldn’t be an issue if she wasn’t the first.

I’m just wondering how this is any different from WWE’s treatment of women though. My biggest issue with them is lots of tell, not much show.
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Old 09-09-2019, 09:56 PM   #2052
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Quote:
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I know #fan isn’t being intentionally disrespectful or anything, and I understand the PR stunt perspective, but the whole “trans women are biologically male” take is quite out-dated, not scientific and not going to get airplay by too many outside the transphobes.
Well, it’s absolutely scientific. Trans women are biologically male and thus have an advantage physically. We can discuss whether it matters or not but if you’re gonna argue it’s “not scientific “, we’ve got a long way to go before we get there.
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:48 PM   #2053
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Noid pulling a Trump here
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:15 AM   #2054
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Biology is not the dichotomy people generalize it as and is far more complicated than male/female. It’s not just about what junk you have either. There is also how your brain is wired. We understand now that some people are born with “female” brains despite having what you’d call “male” anatomy. What you’re talking about is assigned sex. It’s a set of assumptions that I think you’ll find many (most?) in the scientific community steer clear of now.

It’s not just a gender vs. sex or feelings vs. science thing. We’re learning more about how complicated “biological” sex is all the time, and it’s not something that is perceived as a binary anymore.

That’s got nothing to do with the wrestling psychology aspect of it though. I honestly don’t think much about trans people in sport, because I don’t think much about sport. The smart people I know who are into that shit think it’s bullshit they are excluded or it’s assumed they have an advantage. Off the top of my head, it’s stuff like mentality and how they’ve trained their bodies to be more “womanly,” because of that struggle, so it’s not like a man straight ahead plowing forward. In some sports, the assumption that men have an advantage is often overblown too.

Not sure about wrestling, lol. Personally, I’d use the trans stuff to build up a heel for her to knock down. A bitch heel like a Scarlett Bordeaux could be a real piece of shit and protest her having the belt. No way they’d do that.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:04 AM   #2055
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:52 AM   #2056
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I think it's pretty clear they're gonna crown Rose champ. And I'm guessing it's gonna be a squash.
Riho beat her before though.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:52 AM   #2057
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AEW also aren’t masturbating themselves about hiring a transwoman like WWE would be.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:02 AM   #2058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
Biology is not the dichotomy people generalize it as and is far more complicated than male/female. It’s not just about what junk you have either. There is also how your brain is wired. We understand now that some people are born with “female” brains despite having what you’d call “male” anatomy. What you’re talking about is assigned sex. It’s a set of assumptions that I think you’ll find many (most?) in the scientific community steer clear of now.

It’s not just a gender vs. sex or feelings vs. science thing. We’re learning more about how complicated “biological” sex is all the time, and it’s not something that is perceived as a binary anymore.

That’s got nothing to do with the wrestling psychology aspect of it though. I honestly don’t think much about trans people in sport, because I don’t think much about sport. The smart people I know who are into that shit think it’s bullshit they are excluded or it’s assumed they have an advantage. Off the top of my head, it’s stuff like mentality and how they’ve trained their bodies to be more “womanly,” because of that struggle, so it’s not like a man straight ahead plowing forward. In some sports, the assumption that men have an advantage is often overblown too.

Not sure about wrestling, lol. Personally, I’d use the trans stuff to build up a heel for her to knock down. A bitch heel like a Scarlett Bordeaux could be a real piece of shit and protest her having the belt. No way they’d do that.
You are actually such a fucking idiot.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:46 PM   #2059
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Honestly didn't think the fact that generally, biological males have a physical advantage over biological females would be a point of contention. Usually the "trans women should be able to compete in sports with women" crowd don't even use that as a reason.

Kinda distracts from my main point anyway which is that it's gonna be weird, in an era where wrestling is trying to hype female wrestling as on-par with male wrestling, a woman is likely to win their women's title because she was born a man. And it would be awesome if they factored it into the story but instead they'll be having to ignore the elephant in the room for the sake of not offending anyone and that's just gonna make it more weird.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:55 PM   #2060
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And Noid, I could have sworn I've seen you discuss Cornette's issue with women not fighting men in wrestling and you sided with him, did you not? If you don't agree that there are physical advantages to being born a male then what would be the problem with men fighting women?
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Old 09-10-2019, 04:09 PM   #2061
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Joe Rogan had a good take on this. There was a transgender destroying women in mma. She lost eventually. But it's pretty daft to argue that a transgender woman, born with higher bone density, and testosterone, doesn't have a physical advantage. They absolutely do.
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:59 PM   #2062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian Rey 2.0 View Post
Joe Rogan had a good take on this. There was a transgender destroying women in mma. She lost eventually. But it's pretty daft to argue that a transgender woman, born with higher bone density, and testosterone, doesn't have a physical advantage. They absolutely do.
Lol, testosterone is overrated and isn’t what people think it is. And Joe Rogan doesn’t have a good take on anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
And Noid, I could have sworn I've seen you discuss Cornette's issue with women not fighting men in wrestling and you sided with him, did you not? If you don't agree that there are physical advantages to being born a male then what would be the problem with men fighting women?
You’re putting a lot of straw in that scarecrow. I don’t agree that men should beat up women, no. There are a whole bunch of social reasons I think that is a shitty thing to promote. Absolutely none of that has anything to do trans women wrestling women. Nice try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Honestly didn't think the fact that generally, biological males have a physical advantage over biological females would be a point of contention. Usually the "trans women should be able to compete in sports with women" crowd don't even use that as a reason.

Kinda distracts from my main point anyway which is that it's gonna be weird, in an era where wrestling is trying to hype female wrestling as on-par with male wrestling, a woman is likely to win their women's title because she was born a man. And it would be awesome if they factored it into the story but instead they'll be having to ignore the elephant in the room for the sake of not offending anyone and that's just gonna make it more weird.
Well, I’m not actually even talking about that. I’m just saying that it’s shitty to think of Nyla as a “biological male” and explained why. Don’t make me do your Google searches for you. And as I said, I know you weren’t deliberately being disrespectful. Most people probably don’t think on this stuff much. But the information is out there.

Transgenderism isn’t a case of a dude deciding he wants to be a she. Saying someone is “biologically male” makes a whole bunch of assumptions that you don’t know about her — her body, her bones, her chromosones, her brain. That’s all “biology.” I’m not even putting this isn’t a wrestling context. It’s just outmoded terminology. And that’s not “PC culture” or whatever. There is scientific information underlying all of this. I don’t think you’ll find too many people in the medical profession who will think of trans women as “formerly biologically male.”

In a wrestling context, I’d just compare it to Brian Lee always having an advantage over Kurt Angle. Right? Men shouldn’t fight women, and generally speaking there are assumptions you can make about size and “bone density.” But that’s not a given when you’re talking about specific freak athletes, especially ones with a trans background.

I’m not sure what Dale said, but I’m sure it was useless.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:00 PM   #2063
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On a more interesting note, All Out buys were down about 20,000. Not great feedback.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:33 PM   #2064
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Hot damn this is some of the utmost ignorant signaling I have ever laid eyes on. You could repost Noids takes here on social media and go viral off that shit show.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:33 PM   #2065
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I don't think men should be able to hit women until after the surgery.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:37 PM   #2066
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Hey guys can somebody tell me what level of woke this is?
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:47 PM   #2067
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Yes, signalling. Because I want #1-wwf-fan and Dastardly Dale to love me so much. And all the traffic these boards get. Do you think someone will notice me?

Do yourselves a favor and spend one shit researching this stuff. I’m just saying this shit is more complicated than “Nyla used to be a dude” and that saying “scientifically” is just not the right way to use that word. Scientifically speaking.
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Old 09-10-2019, 08:53 PM   #2068
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It’s been a while since I looked this up, but I know Planned Parenthood has easy to read articles on this, and I’m fairly certain the World Health Organization too.

Lol, not sure why you’re so angry about it, Seph. What an odd response to have. Is there a reason it bothers you so much?
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:03 PM   #2069
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If anyone has any scientific evidence to the contrary, I’m happy to read it.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:33 PM   #2070
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You are making absolutely outrageous claims here. Testosterone isn't a big deal and people don't even know what it is. Suggesting that biological men having a distinct physical advantage over biological women is a myth. Then pretending like this is long decided science, providing no evidence and asking people to not make you google it for them.

Then you come here and ask for people to provide evidence of the contrary to you....

Are you kidding me right now? I'm not the least bit angry about it, just flabbergasted as to how someone could be so daft and condescending at the same time.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:39 PM   #2071
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Noid, you are a walking-talking stereotype of the woke warriors that LITERALLY the rest of the world laughs at.

Men are stronger than women and it's not a social construct -- they just are. Thicker bone structure and testosterone. It doesn't mean men are superior to women. It just means on average, they're born with a stronger, faster, and more athletic makeup. There's no argument to make against that fact, unless you've been brainwashed in an inane social science class and don't have the capacity to produce your own thoughts.

To think it's a stretch, or even transphobic, to imply someone born a male has a physical strength advantage over those born females is beyond ignorant. It's not being said in a way to dehumanize someone, though that's clearly what you're implying because you're a shitty, judgemental piece of garbage.

TBH though I literally don't care if Nyla is the champ. I think it's fine. Wrestling being wrestling and all. But when it comes to something like MMA, I start worrying about the safety of other competitors.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:41 PM   #2072
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And I don't hate Fan's idea about the storyline about Nyla's advantage. But my empathy/snowflake-side would feel bad that the only trans-representation in wrestling would be a psychopath using her "biological advantage" to win.
Last edited by Ol Dirty Dastard; 09-10-2019 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 09:59 PM   #2073
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While we're on the topic of men not being inherently physically superior to women, can someone explain to me how a group of teenage boys from the Dallas Boys Academy high school managed to beat the US women's national soccer team (the current world champions) 5-0 in a game? Was that victory a social construct, Noid?
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:01 PM   #2074
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Quote:
Originally Posted by #1-wwf-fan View Post
Well, it’s absolutely scientific. Trans women are biologically male and thus have an advantage physically. We can discuss whether it matters or not but if you’re gonna argue it’s “not scientific “, we’ve got a long way to go before we get there.
Absolutely right there are numerous cases recently that have come up where people who were born male and transitioned have been wiping the floor with female athletes and some of them claim to not have a distinct Advantage even though that's just not true. To pretend otherwise is crazy denial
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:47 PM   #2075
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Originally Posted by Mr. Nerfect View Post
Yes, signalling. Because I want #1-wwf-fan and Dastardly Dale to love me so much. And all the traffic these boards get.
I see that there’s a lot of posts after this that I’ll have to address tomorrow morning but I feel like I just got kicked through the Barbershop window. Damn.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:16 AM   #2076
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I’ve never used the phrase “social construct.” You are literally making that up and doing some hard projecting. Gender is a social construct, but we’re not even talking gender, we’re talking “scientifically biologically male.” Scientifically she is a woman. My only gripe here is the word “scientifically.”

I’m not advocating for intergender wrestling. But trans women wrestling is not intergender. Trans women don’t necessarily have the same physical advantages as males generally might just because they were assigned male status at birth. Were they developed? Did they have abnormally low testosterone? Are they naturally small? Non-confrontational? Do they have other health issues or lingering injuries? You can cherry-pick anecdotes all you want. What about the trans girl who gets obliterated?

Trans women are women. Just because they used to be thought of as men doesn’t mean they used to be giant rough and tumble dudes who could definitely kick a woman fighter’s ass. Could they have been? Maybe. Maybe not though too.

I knew this would go down this route, but to go back to my original point: It’s not scientifically accurate to say that Nyla Rose was scientifically male. That might be good enough for some people, and it might even be good enough for her, but that’s just way too fixed a statement given what we know about transgenderism, the brain and sexual development in 2019. She may have always been a woman.

I know what #fan’s point was, and I don’t even disagree with it, it’s just that wording and the plastering of “scientifically” over complicated issues of identity and biology. And I don’t think it’s a semantic issue, because it leaves so much out. I know trans people who don’t celebrate their birthday because they are so distant from that association. They *weren’t* that person. Scientifically, they existed. Maybe the best way to explain it is alignment. There is no scientific guarantee that a trans person was aligned with their assigned sex, mentally, emotionally or physically. That’s all.

And it’s not outrageous to say what I said about testosterone. People use it euphemistically like it’s a power level. Drinking soy milk will not make you weak. Anything in the normal range for testosterone is fine.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:20 AM   #2077
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I see that there’s a lot of posts after this that I’ll have to address tomorrow morning but I feel like I just got kicked through the Barbershop window. Damn.
Well, okay, but maybe I was lying about you. I do care.

For the record I know you were not being a jerk or anything. And I know you don’t think you were, lol. I’m not about to start screaming about you being transphobic or anything. It’s just something I’ve had to learn about. You might think it’s a crock of shit and not important, but in my experience it is, and you’re a smart guy, so I didn’t think it was a waste of time either.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:22 AM   #2078
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I really want to talk about this buyrate. I haven’t been thrilled with some of the philosophical decisions of AEW, but I didn’t expect the number to go down. Thought it would be up slightly.
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Old 09-11-2019, 12:29 AM   #2079
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Memeber that time Serena Williams, ranked 1st in the world (womens) played Karsten Baasch, ranked 203rd in the world (mens,) at the Australian open and he decimated her while openly drinking?


In hindsight her msistake was she didnt identify properly. Social constructs holding woman back.
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Old 09-11-2019, 01:36 AM   #2080
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Quote:
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Memeber that time Serena Williams, ranked 1st in the world (womens) played Karsten Baasch, ranked 203rd in the world (mens,) at the Australian open and he decimated her while openly drinking?


In hindsight her msistake was she didnt identify properly. Social constructs holding woman back.
Again with the social construct thing. I had no clue Karsten Baasch was trans.
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