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Old 09-17-2016, 07:20 AM   #28721
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If you didn't intend to say anything about physiques then I apologize. It really did come off that way though based on some of your previous posts around here, and the way you said "samey."

I agree completely with you about pretty much everything you've clarified here, but again you seem to be putting the blame on the roster when it is 100% the booking end of things. We don't need new guys because those new guys will just get treated like shit too when they come in. What we need is better writing, less control over the talent, and overall just better booking. You can see it when the talent is allowed to "do their own thing" that they have big new ideas, and they have talent. The issue is they're not allowed to show it.

As for the matches all being the same, well, that's a side effect of the previously mentioned problem. If you're not allowed to have control over anything but your matches you're gonna end up wanting to do everything possible in them. Guys want to have 5 star matches and kick out of finishers and shit because that's the only way they can get noticed anymore. WWE's taken away pretty much every other outlet they have.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:25 AM   #28722
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I do stand by my previous statement though. Fixing all of these issues would help the product a lot, but it wouldn't suddenly make wrestling "cool" again. That ship has sailed. WWE needs to focus on being the best damn wrestling show they can be, and they need to find that happy balance between making a good product and pandering to their dedicated fanbase. I think they've done a decent job of that on the talent end of things with signing guys like Owens, Rollins, Styles, etc, but now they need to put the pieces together and tell good stories with those guys. They also need to learn that sometimes it's okay to listen to your fans. Pushing a guy like Bryan, turning Roman heel, these things shouldn't be so difficult for this company.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:29 AM   #28723
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I can agree with that. A big problem is that you have a whole bunch of guys writing, and often they are writing for Vince, because they know what will get approved and what won't. They are also writing with their own long-term vision in place, and that is going to clash against another person's vision, which is going to be knocked back down by Vince and then no one is over.

On a recent Jim Cornette Experience, Dutch Mantel talks about booking in TNA, and how he'd have an idea for a person, then someone else will say "Hey! You can then do this!" and then it goes around the table, everybody throws something in there, and then it comes back around and the idea is completely different and for a completely different guy.

I think wrestling needs to return to having a genuine booker -- or at least a team picked by a single booker. I'd love to see a Paul Heyman vs. Dutch Mantel war. Whoever has the least growth in product steps down after six months and goes back into cycle, and someone else steps up and heads their own team. Maybe Arn Anderson? You keep the flavor of the shows rolling along, guys get to regenerate when they have burnt out all their good ideas, and you'll ultimately get lots of different flavor and different guys being emphasized.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:32 AM   #28724
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I do stand by my previous statement though. Fixing all of these issues would help the product a lot, but it wouldn't suddenly make wrestling "cool" again. That ship has sailed. WWE needs to focus on being the best damn wrestling show they can be, and they need to find that happy balance between making a good product and pandering to their dedicated fanbase. I think they've done a decent job of that on the talent end of things with signing guys like Owens, Rollins, Styles, etc, but now they need to put the pieces together and tell good stories with those guys. They also need to learn that sometimes it's okay to listen to your fans. Pushing a guy like Bryan, turning Roman heel, these things shouldn't be so difficult for this company.
Not pushing Bryan and not turning Reigns have been really stupid things. Hell, Cena should have turned if we're being serious. Heel Cena would cause a ratings spike, I am sure of it. He should screw Becky Lynch out of the Women's Title and help Nikki win it.

I don't know if wrestling can be cool again, but I think you can grow the product, and I think "good wrestling" is subjective. I've found a lot of the matches recently boring because they don't have anything real at stake. Everybody is going to have a job in 2 years wearing similar gear and using the same theme music.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:35 AM   #28725
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That's a pretty good idea honestly. What's that old saying, too many cooks spoils the broth? Too bad WWE is too stubborn to do something like this.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:37 AM   #28726
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That might be one change that comes if Triple H takes over, and it might be the most important one. Triple H at least seems to understand how wrestling works at a fundamental level. I'm sure Vince gets that too, but as you said, he's too stubborn and believes he is constructing something for Hollywood -- but I think he forgets that most screenplays don't have that many writers either.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:40 AM   #28727
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As weird as this sounds, watching Backlash it felt as if it were a show that Dutch Mantel would have booked if he was on the team. I mean, I'm just gathering that from the way he talks. I wonder if he's got a line through to someone on the SmackDown team and took a call from them sometime during the week heading up to it?

Court Bauer (a one time SmackDown writer) used to call Gary Hart and get ideas for SmackDown around '06.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:41 AM   #28728
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Quote:
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Not pushing Bryan and not turning Reigns have been really stupid things. Hell, Cena should have turned if we're being serious. Heel Cena would cause a ratings spike, I am sure of it. He should screw Becky Lynch out of the Women's Title and help Nikki win it.

I don't know if wrestling can be cool again, but I think you can grow the product, and I think "good wrestling" is subjective. I've found a lot of the matches recently boring because they don't have anything real at stake. Everybody is going to have a job in 2 years wearing similar gear and using the same theme music.
Cena turning heel would definitely be an amazing thing for the company. Too bad it'll never happen.

Oh, I'm not saying you couldn't get more ratings out of the show, but you'll never reach Attitude Era levels of viewership. Fixing all the problems we've gone over would probably bring back a HUGE portion of the ex-fans who've dropped off over the years. People who haven't watched wrestling since they were kids might tune in again. However, I don't think anything will ever bring in people who just have no interest in wrestling. You're not gonna catch someone who's never had any sort of exposure or interest in the product and change their mind no matter how great your product is. With comic book movies you could do this because despite comics being an extremely niche product putting them in a movie format and changing them the way they have makes it possible for mainstream audiences to see it as "worthy." I think the same can be said of a movie like The Wrestler which I remember tons of people in my life who've never watched wrestling talking about. However, actual wrestling will always be the comic book in this situation. I think you can grow it like you said, but there's always gonna be a pretty hard cap on how far that growth goes, and I think WWE needs to come to terms with that and just focus on shooting for that cap.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:48 AM   #28729
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Talking about booking, ROH could really use a break from Delirious for a while. Not because he's shit or banging the talent or anything like that -- but just to give him a break and give the product a new feel for a little while. Maybe he could return to the ring or focus on training guys for a year or so. No pay cut.

Kevin Sullivan has an open channel with ROH at the moment. I have a feeling he had something to do with the recent Jay Lethal/Adam Cole angle. Maybe he could take over for a few months with his own team and see what he can do? He could mentor someone like Nigel McGuinness or even Kevin Kelly, then hand it over to them or get them to take over after Delirious returns as booker.

It'd be interesting if a woman were brought in and given a shot at booking too. A female mind and what they view as star potential, and who they see worthy as pushing could be an eye-opener too. Lisa Moretti (Ivory) immediately comes to mind.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:51 AM   #28730
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Cena turning heel would definitely be an amazing thing for the company. Too bad it'll never happen.

Oh, I'm not saying you couldn't get more ratings out of the show, but you'll never reach Attitude Era levels of viewership. Fixing all the problems we've gone over would probably bring back a HUGE portion of the ex-fans who've dropped off over the years. People who haven't watched wrestling since they were kids might tune in again. However, I don't think anything will ever bring in people who just have no interest in wrestling. You're not gonna catch someone who's never had any sort of exposure or interest in the product and change their mind no matter how great your product is. With comic book movies you could do this because despite comics being an extremely niche product putting them in a movie format and changing them the way they have makes it possible for mainstream audiences to see it as "worthy." I think the same can be said of a movie like The Wrestler which I remember tons of people in my life who've never watched wrestling talking about. However, actual wrestling will always be the comic book in this situation. I think you can grow it like you said, but there's always gonna be a pretty hard cap on how far that growth goes, and I think WWE needs to come to terms with that and just focus on shooting for that cap.
I completely agree with this, and have often thought of comic books being quite similar to wrestling. Except I'd argue that comics have enjoyed a heightened success due to the success of Marvel/DC movies (although I haven't actually seen numbers to back this up).

I actually think the ratings share for wrestling should be much higher than it's ever been -- given that, as people point out, television itself seems to be a dying medium in the form of network television and cable. What else are people watching on a Monday night if not new live content? I don't think it's just that wrestling is niche, but it seems to be something that people are actively avoiding.
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:55 AM   #28731
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Bringing in a woman could be a very interesting turn of events. I'm a huge animation enthusiast, and in recent years we've seen a huge spike in women directing and writing for animated TV shows. Funny thing is since this happened a lot of people are calling it an animation renaissance right now. From what I can tell the newer women writers and directors seem to put more emphasis on creating scenarios for characters to interact in which in turn makes people care more about these characters. Something like this in wrestling could be the shot it needs since a huge issue right now is the lack of reason behind everything. A 5-star match means nothing if it doesn't have emotion behind it. Make me care about the two guys involved. Make me understand who they are and why they're fighting.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:01 AM   #28732
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I completely agree with this, and have often thought of comic books being quite similar to wrestling. Except I'd argue that comics have enjoyed a heightened success due to the success of Marvel/DC movies (although I haven't actually seen numbers to back this up).

I actually think the ratings share for wrestling should be much higher than it's ever been -- given that, as people point out, television itself seems to be a dying medium in the form of network television and cable. What else are people watching on a Monday night if not new live content? I don't think it's just that wrestling is niche, but it seems to be something that people are actively avoiding.
Eh, comics right now are doing pretty good, but they're not growing as much as you'd think they would with the success of the movies. They're making more money than they've ever made, but that still means they're making waaaay less than pretty much any other medium out there right now. I don't know the exact numbers, but I do know from talking with guys in the industry at conventions and whatnot that working on comics barely pays the bills. A lot of them have to take commissions on a regular basis or find work outside the industry too to make ends meet. Still, you're right that there is growth there, mostly in the form of kids and millennials who are flocking to all the new characters popping up like Ms. Marvel and the focus on more comedy related content. Books like Deadpool and Harley Quinn seem to be a big indicator of the future of the industry. At least that's what I've noticed.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:39 AM   #28733
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Talking about booking, ROH could really use a break from Delirious for a while. Not because he's shit or banging the talent or anything like that -- but just to give him a break and give the product a new feel for a little while. Maybe he could return to the ring or focus on training guys for a year or so. No pay cut.

Kevin Sullivan has an open channel with ROH at the moment. I have a feeling he had something to do with the recent Jay Lethal/Adam Cole angle. Maybe he could take over for a few months with his own team and see what he can do? He could mentor someone like Nigel McGuinness or even Kevin Kelly, then hand it over to them or get them to take over after Delirious returns as booker.

It'd be interesting if a woman were brought in and given a shot at booking too. A female mind and what they view as star potential, and who they see worthy as pushing could be an eye-opener too. Lisa Moretti (Ivory) immediately comes to mind.
Kevin Sullivan had nothing to do with Lethal/Cole, he's only been involved with the Corino/Whitmer/Punisher Martinez angle.

Kevin Kelly is already part of the creative team, and is basically starting to take over for Delirious as he gains more responsibility.

And Ivory in late 2016 is not an eye opener. She was never good to begin with and hasn't wrestled in ten years. How would she be worthy of pushing? Everyone talks about how signing WWE rejects doesn't help... you want to bring in Ivory to help ROH????
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Old 09-17-2016, 05:30 PM   #28734
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Yeah, that is weird. "Charlotte Flair" doesn't really sound right either.
No, because Charlotte isn't her real name.
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Old 09-17-2016, 05:51 PM   #28735
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Old 09-17-2016, 05:57 PM   #28736
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Does anybody else get invitations to do/join WWE Fan Council surveys?
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:04 PM   #28737
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Quote:
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Not pushing Bryan and not turning Reigns have been really stupid things. Hell, Cena should have turned if we're being serious. Heel Cena would cause a ratings spike, I am sure of it. He should screw Becky Lynch out of the Women's Title and help Nikki win it.
Biggest problem is Vince is too paranoid over lost merch sales if they ever turned Cena heel. Same for whenever they try to make him look weak.

Think the sheets have teased over the years Vince wants to wait for whenever Cena's successor is completely ready to turn Cena and have the "passing of the torch" happen at Mania. Reigns struggling as that successor means its going to be a while before it happens or even longer if the WWE/Vince decides on picking someone else instead.

Then again if Vince had listened to Cena, he would have turned heel around the time of the Rock feud.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:14 PM   #28738
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Kevin Sullivan had nothing to do with Lethal/Cole, he's only been involved with the Corino/Whitmer/Punisher Martinez angle.

Kevin Kelly is already part of the creative team, and is basically starting to take over for Delirious as he gains more responsibility.

And Ivory in late 2016 is not an eye opener. She was never good to begin with and hasn't wrestled in ten years. How would she be worthy of pushing? Everyone talks about how signing WWE rejects doesn't help... you want to bring in Ivory to help ROH????
He meant bring in Ivory as a booker, not as a wrestler...
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:21 PM   #28739
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A moot point in 2016 but Ivory was a tremendous worker.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:38 PM   #28740
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
He meant bring in Ivory as a booker, not as a wrestler...
...What does Ivory know about booking...
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:41 PM   #28741
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This guy is in NXT. I'm expecting big things.
Looks like another Meathead that couldn't spell Meathead.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:42 PM   #28742
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This guy is in NXT. I'm expecting big things.
If that Fabian Aichner? He looked like the next Randy Orton in the CWC.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:44 PM   #28743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike adamle View Post
...What does Ivory know about booking...
Probably just as much as any of the other countless former wrestlers who turned booker. You seem to be under the impression that bringing in someone who's wrestled but never booked is new to the business. Also for all I know she might have some history at it. I'm too lazy to use the google machine right now though.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:45 PM   #28744
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A moot point in 2016 but Ivory was a tremendous worker.
Also true.
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Old 09-17-2016, 06:59 PM   #28745
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Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
Probably just as much as any of the other countless former wrestlers who turned booker. You seem to be under the impression that bringing in someone who's wrestled but never booked is new to the business. Also for all I know she might have some history at it. I'm too lazy to use the google machine right now though.
And all of those people have stayed in contact with the business in some shape or form since retiring as wrestler and transitioning into the agent/creative role. Ivory has not had any contact with wrestling since 2006. And she wasn't good at all. Which Ivory match did you think was so great??
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Old 09-17-2016, 07:38 PM   #28746
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WWE rumored to have made a bid to purchase or be the new owner of TNA.

Quote:
WWE and Sinclair Broadcast Group, owner of the Ring of Honor wrestling organization, are rumored to have made recent bids.

A complicated ownership structure also poses challenges in getting every stakeholder on the same page. In addition to majority owner and Chairwoman Dixie Carter, Corgan, Aroluxe Marketing and Canada’s Fight Network all have equity stakes.

Meanwhile, the Nashville, Tenn.-based company is so financially strapped that investor and working-capital provider Aroluxe has reportedly taken over its “TNA” (Total Nonstop Action) trademark.

Corgan says the relevant parties have agreed on a sale price. Although he can’t reveal the figure, an estimate based on publicly traded WWE’s market value of two times revenue would put it at around $40 million.
According to the Observer, the real value of TNA is more like $4 million and not $40 million. For some reference, WWE bought WCW for a little over $2 million and ECW for around a million.

http://nypost.com/2016/09/16/billy-c...tna-wrestling/
https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/s...300324352?s=09
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:05 PM   #28747
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I'll give them my weekly pay of $2,100.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:06 PM   #28748
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Nah then you'd be what you hate the most: a minority owner.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:10 PM   #28749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smelly Meatball View Post
WWE rumored to have made a bid to purchase or be the new owner of TNA.

Quote:
WWE and Sinclair Broadcast Group, owner of the Ring of Honor wrestling organization, are rumored to have made recent bids.

A complicated ownership structure also poses challenges in getting every stakeholder on the same page. In addition to majority owner and Chairwoman Dixie Carter, Corgan, Aroluxe Marketing and Canada’s Fight Network all have equity stakes.

Meanwhile, the Nashville, Tenn.-based company is so financially strapped that investor and working-capital provider Aroluxe has reportedly taken over its “TNA” (Total Nonstop Action) trademark.

Corgan says the relevant parties have agreed on a sale price. Although he can’t reveal the figure, an estimate based on publicly traded WWE’s market value of two times revenue would put it at around $40 million.
According to the Observer, the real value of TNA is more like $4 million and not $40 million. For some reference, WWE bought WCW for a little over $2 million and ECW for around a million.

http://nypost.com/2016/09/16/billy-c...tna-wrestling/
https://twitter.com/davemeltzerWON/s...300324352?s=09
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:17 PM   #28750
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$40 Million is kind of a crazy number. I'd say WWE wouldn't spend anymore than $5-8 million for it. It's been reported Dixie wants $4million for her remaining 70%.
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Old 09-17-2016, 08:46 PM   #28751
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I'd argue TNA is worth more to WWE for the back catalog of matches they could upload to the network highlighting half of the NXT rosters past lol
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Old 09-17-2016, 09:14 PM   #28752
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I marked out.
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Old 09-17-2016, 09:54 PM   #28753
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30 years ago today, the WWF pairs one of the most iconic commentary teams ever for the first time at a Wrestling Challenge taping in Salisbury, Maryland. That team: Gorilla Monsoon and Bobby "The Brain" Heenan.
My town wooo
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:43 PM   #28754
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Really intrigued by this TNA news. Probably know something by Bound for Glory as they'll have tapings after that they probably can't afford.

WWE buying them would be great as it would get a decent tape library. Probably wouldn't want a lot of the talent but could pick through who they wanted. They talked about wanting another NXT type promotion so maybe WWE just uses it for that. Like I said feel like the X Division would fit right in to NXT(I can see the yellow belt now) and would be a great mid card title for NXT.

ROH buying them would be cool as well. Sinclair could run them as TNA or merge them with ROH. Merger would probably be best so Ring of Honor could take that next step. They would add a lot of depth to the roster and beef up there main event scene.

Corgan getting full control wouldn't be bad either but is probably the option I would least like to see. He's came in and out some life into the product and is trying some different things like the Impact Grand Championship. He seems to have a vision and really wants to turn TNA around. Most definitely seems like Dixie Carter is out so that's a positive either way it goes.
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Old 09-17-2016, 10:54 PM   #28755
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$40 million for TNA is absurd. It's lucky to be worth 1/4 of that.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:39 AM   #28756
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Yeah, I don't think I would even pay $5,000,000 for TNA at this point.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:43 AM   #28757
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The 40 is rumored to be debt not value.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:48 AM   #28758
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No it's not, they took that estimate from WWEs revenue and it had nothing to do with TNAs actual value.
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Old 09-18-2016, 12:59 AM   #28759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike adamle View Post
Kevin Sullivan had nothing to do with Lethal/Cole, he's only been involved with the Corino/Whitmer/Punisher Martinez angle.

Kevin Kelly is already part of the creative team, and is basically starting to take over for Delirious as he gains more responsibility.

And Ivory in late 2016 is not an eye opener. She was never good to begin with and hasn't wrestled in ten years. How would she be worthy of pushing? Everyone talks about how signing WWE rejects doesn't help... you want to bring in Ivory to help ROH????
How do you know? Sullivan has hinted on his podcast that he's been interacting backstage with a lot of the guys. It could just be him and MSL putting him over, but the shaving of the hair thing is very Sullivan-esque.

I didn't know that about Kevin Kelly. Thanks for sharing that. It's a shame you ruin it by completely not understanding what I was saying about Ivory. If English is not your first language, I apologize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike adamle View Post
...What does Ivory know about booking...
I don't know, honestly. But you do realize that wrestlers used to book wrestling, right? I picked her out because I was thinking of women that are knowledgeable about the business and have ring experience because I'd like to see a woman in charge. Ivory once out-worked Triple H in wrestler's court. She's always come off as a woman who knows what she is doing and has been able to take her ego out of things -- see how she did her best to put Chyna over -- and because of how she has spoken about Triple H in the past, I don't think she's at risk of jumping ship the moment she gets any traction (if that did happen).
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Old 09-18-2016, 01:03 AM   #28760
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If that Fabian Aichner? He looked like the next Randy Orton in the CWC.
Nah. This guy is 6'7. Dan Matha is his name. He's a former football player, but he actually sought training himself though, starting in OVW. He recently cut a promo at an NXT house show where he allegedly came off as being quite confident on the mic and in front of a crowd.

He'd be a long way off, but if he's a natural, his size and look should give him an edge over guys that look like they're off the street.
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